Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
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03-10-2015, 11:01 AM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(03-10-2015 10:50 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 07:42 AM)epronovost Wrote:  What's your problem with homosexuals?

My faggot friends like to greet me by grabbing my package. "Dude can we stick to a friendly ass grab?"


My best friend is gay, but you could never tell; he doesn't have any of the stereotypical 'tells'. Actually, I've been hit on more by other dudes at the local gay bar he likes to hang out at because I look like a 'bear', which is apparently a thing. It's flattering, and he gets a laugh every time they get deflated at the news of my heterosexuality. Tongue

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03-10-2015, 11:16 AM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(03-10-2015 11:01 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 10:50 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  My faggot friends like to greet me by grabbing my package. "Dude can we stick to a friendly ass grab?"


My best friend is gay, but you could never tell; he doesn't have any of the stereotypical 'tells'. Actually, I've been hit on more by other dudes at the local gay bar he likes to hang out at because I look like a 'bear', which is apparently a thing. It's flattering, and he gets a laugh every time they get deflated at the news of my heterosexuality. Tongue

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#sigh
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03-10-2015, 11:19 AM (This post was last modified: 03-10-2015 11:33 AM by epronovost.)
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(03-10-2015 10:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 07:42 AM)epronovost Wrote:  At this point the debate has past the point of ridicule. Why not just skip over the annecdote of the bakers and question Heywood (and others like him) on the core of the subject. What's your problem with homosexuals?

Bonus point for the following joke question: «Does your opposition to homosexuality extand to cute lesbians having sex?»

I don't have a problem with homosexuals. Making this into a debate about homosexuals is a straw man. If the state had fined a gay baker because they would not bake a cake for a christian wedding and then proceeded to put a gag order on that gay baker....I'd be just as mad.

Oh, so you have a problem with anti-discrimination laws that prevent people and businesses to refuse to service clients for the following reasons: ethnicity, sexual orientation or relationship status, religion, political affiliation, handicap (unless there is clear medical reasons). In society, it’s mandatory for an individual, and by extension a business, to tolerate to a certain extend people they don't like or even hate. This includes baking cakes to people you think are ugly, do things you reprove or favor a lifestyle you disagree with. The only reason you are allowed not to bake a cake for someone if you are a baker was if the client was disturbing your other customers, threatening you and insulting you without provocation or other similar circumstances. You can't deny service to people for what they are or what they do in their private life outside of your establishment. It's especially grave if you deny service explicitly for one the reasons mentioned above, they target directly a person moral and intellectual integrity. In cases where religious or political beliefs would lead you to discriminate a group of person based on their own religion, political beleifs, ethinicity, sexual orientation or relationship status or handicap, those individuals and businesses must provide the service. The only exception widely accepted would be if the service in question would represent a criminal act or if it would force you to endorse actions that are themselves clearly discriminatory toward one of those protected groups.
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03-10-2015, 11:27 AM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(03-10-2015 10:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I don't have a problem with homosexuals. Making this into a debate about homosexuals is a straw man. If the state had fined a gay baker because they would not bake a cake for a christian wedding and then proceeded to put a gag order on that gay baker....I'd be just as mad.

The "gag order" exists because the publicity and attention the bakers brought to the lesbian couple was the problem in the first place. Had the bakers. e.g., kept the couple who filed a complaint anonymous, they could speak freely about the fact they were fined. They'd still be fined just the same.

Moreover, yet, it is illegal to refuse someone because they identify as Christian. I put the word "identify," because that doesn't mean they have to accommodate their beliefs. E.g., a baker doesn't need to write down "God hates gays" on a cake because someone requested it per sincere religious beliefs; the baker can refuse to make that cake and cite that they refuse to bake cakes that endorse messages that might offend LGBT people. The important fact is that the rationale, i.e. "[endorsing] messages that might offend LGBT people" can hold true even if the requester weren't Christian; as such this rationale is perfectly consistent with anti-discrimination law. A couple saying they refuse to bake wedding cakes for gay couples necessitate that the requester is gay; ergo it contradicts anti-discrimination law. Many attempts were made to try to "get" gay bakers because certain Christians seriously do not get how anti-discrimination law since they oft request a specific message. Moreover most protections for/against religion refer only to how you identify and not what you do. We somehow get this when we say if your religion commands human sacrifice you still can't sacrifice a human (i.e. it's legal); the rule "actions due to religious beliefs do not excuse (otherwise) illegal conduct" applies to almost all laws. Just like your religion does not excuse your human sacrifice (if you did one in the name of religion); religion does not excuse your discrimination against anti-discrimination law.


So yes, hypothetically if a baker (gay or straight) refused to serve a couple because they identify as Christian (or Muslim or atheist or whatever) and preceded to make a public spectacle whose drama rivals the best of broadway, then hypothetically that baker could receive the same fate as did Melissa'a Bakery.
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03-10-2015, 11:43 AM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(03-10-2015 10:52 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 07:42 AM)epronovost Wrote:  At this point the debate has past the point of ridicule. Why not just skip over the annecdote of the bakers and question Heywood (and others like him) on the core of the subject. What's your problem with homosexuals?

Bonus point for the following joke question: «Does your opposition to homosexuality extand to cute lesbians having sex?»

I don't have a problem with homosexuals. Making this into a debate about homosexuals is a straw man. If the state had fined a gay baker because they would not bake a cake for a christian wedding and then proceeded to put a gag order on that gay baker....I'd be just as mad.

You just always mad. That's why you're a whiney bitch, with no dates.
It's not a straw man. It's a red herring fallacy.
And we still want to know why you think mentally ill people belong in prison, what qualifies you to diagnose them, and why you brought that (another red herring) up in this context.

Get busy. Troll-without-a-date-and-wimpy-arms.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-10-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(03-10-2015 11:27 AM)ZoraPrime Wrote:  The "gag order" exists because the publicity and attention the bakers brought to the lesbian couple was the problem in the first place. Had the bakers. e.g., kept the couple who filed a complaint anonymous, they could speak freely about the fact they were fined. They'd still be fined just the same.

This is government abuse of a gag order to prevent the bakers from publicly naming their accusers. The bakers have the right to bring their plight to the public just as the gay couple does and did in negative public reviews they posted about the bakers immediately after the denial of service. It is called Freedom of Speech.
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03-10-2015, 12:22 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(03-10-2015 12:10 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 11:27 AM)ZoraPrime Wrote:  The "gag order" exists because the publicity and attention the bakers brought to the lesbian couple was the problem in the first place. Had the bakers. e.g., kept the couple who filed a complaint anonymous, they could speak freely about the fact they were fined. They'd still be fined just the same.

This is government abuse of a gag order to prevent the bakers from publicly naming their accusers. The bakers have the right to bring their plight to the public just as the gay couple does and did in negative public reviews they posted about the bakers immediately after the denial of service. It is called Freedom of Speech.

Which isn't some universal concept that doesn't get limited in some regards. It was never intended or used that way and people who act like any limit of some element. Do you actual not grasp the legal situation or do you think it's "immoral" or disagree with legal precedent in favor of your view? Or do you proclaim to grasp it but don't care because you'd rather say irrational statements that obviously are wrong because you think that somehow is a way that makes sense to communicate.

It's some idiocy that permeates people who want to feel empowered but don't grasp nuance. NDAs, refusal to speak on instances, and other services are protections that are in use. It's not an outlandish task or an abuse to be in place.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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03-10-2015, 01:21 PM (This post was last modified: 04-10-2015 01:49 AM by ZoraPrime.)
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(03-10-2015 12:10 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 11:27 AM)ZoraPrime Wrote:  The "gag order" exists because the publicity and attention the bakers brought to the lesbian couple was the problem in the first place. Had the bakers. e.g., kept the couple who filed a complaint anonymous, they could speak freely about the fact they were fined. They'd still be fined just the same.

This is government abuse of a gag order to prevent the bakers from publicly naming their accusers. The bakers have the right to bring their plight to the public just as the gay couple does and did in negative public reviews they posted about the bakers immediately after the denial of service. It is called Freedom of Speech.

Are your really this much of a moron?

Freedom of speech has time/place/manner restrictions. The issue isn't that the government want bakeries to say if they have (not) been fined for anti-discrimination; rather, they want to make sure plaintiffs can file complaints without unreasonable harassment impeding them from exercising their civic right. The bakery overstep this massively--such as posting the couples' name and address. That information would not have been public without the bakery disclosing it. The couples had to adopt their foster children because of the public exposure. Etc. Read the damn facts that were linked on the first page. I hate having to repeat myself: had they kept the couple anonymous, for example, there would be no issue. If Oregon did not take appropriate steps, then people would have to risk exposing themselves on a national-public scale just for filing a damn complaint. The damage has been done and any more speaking of this incident necessarily brings the lesbian couple to the public spotlight against their wishes because their identities are already known. The bakery can no longer speak of the plaintiffs anonymously.

I cannot make that any simpler. If you aren't getting it, then you're being intellectually dishonest because you so desperately want to believe that this is an abridgement of free speech that you cannot actually comprehend how much the lesbian couple had to go through for exercising their right to file a complaint (which, moreover, ended up being a legitimate complaint).
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03-10-2015, 01:33 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(03-10-2015 01:21 PM)ZoraPrime Wrote:  
(03-10-2015 12:10 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  This is government abuse of a gag order to prevent the bakers from publicly naming their accusers. The bakers have the right to bring their plight to the public just as the gay couple does and did in negative public reviews they posted about the bakers immediately after the denial of service. It is called Freedom of Speech.

Are your really this much of a moron?

Freedom of speech has time/place/manner restrictions. The issue isn't that the government want bakeries to say if they have (not) been fined for anti-discrimination; rather, they want to make sure plaintiffs can file complaints with unreasonable harassment from exercising their civic right. The bakery overstept his massively--such as posting the couples' name and address. That information would not have been public without the bakery disclosing it. The couples had to adopt their foster children because of the public exposure. Etc. Read the damn facts that were linked on the first page. I hate having to repeat myself: had they kept the couple anonymous, for example, there would be no issue. If Oregon did not take appropriate steps, then people would have to risk exposing themselves on a national-public scale just for filing a damn complaint. The damage has been done and any more speaking of this incident necessarily brings the lesbian couple to the public spotlight against their wishes because their identities are already known. The bakery can no longer speak of the plaintiffs anonymously.

I cannot make that any simpler. If you aren't getting in, then you're being intellectually dishonest because you so desperately want to believe that this is an abridgement of free speech that you cannot actually comprehend how much the lesbian couple had to go through for exercising their right to file a complaint (which, moreover, ended up being a legitimate complaint).

I'll jump in first. I forgive you for calling the moron a moron.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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03-10-2015, 03:38 PM
RE: Oregon Couple refuses to pay damages to gays couple or comply with Gag Order
(03-10-2015 01:21 PM)ZoraPrime Wrote:  Are your really this much of a moron?

Yes, he really is.

#sigh
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