Orgonomy: The Evidence
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18-12-2011, 02:02 PM
RE: Orgonomy: The Evidence
(18-12-2011 10:24 AM)Luminon Wrote:  I hope to answer you best as I can, because your questions sound very tolerant and reasonable.

Um... they were reasonable but slightly hostile. Credit to you for not getting annoyed - I feel slightly bad now, you were so nice in your reply... Confused

Regardless, I shall now tear your argument to shreds Tongue

Actually I shall go to bed, reread your post later and generally pay a bit more attention. However be aware that I'm gonna do my best to take your posts to pieces as has Chas Wink I'll be interested in your reply to his last post concerning predictions...

As an example, what you said in your reply was:
Quote:We can predict that there is this "energetic" substance called orgone (ether) in cosmos and on Earth which participates on living organisms (specially nerve and endocrine system) and weather. It also interacts with nuclear fission and in a limited way with non-living materials.
To me, this is not prediction, this is an *assertion* of the theory. The theory *asserts* that this substance exists. You do say though that it's concerned with living organisms and weather.

OK Smile *How* does it affect for example, the nerve system? That's question 1. Question 2 is: how do you know it's orgone and not something else?
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18-12-2011, 02:54 PM
RE: Orgonomy: The Evidence
(18-12-2011 10:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  Is this is a problem of wording or understanding? When asked for predictions, what is meant is "What testable, falsifiable predictions does this theory make?"
I hesitated because what you're asking from me is basically to bet everything on my knowledge of orgonomy, not of the real orgonomist. I'd rather point you towards some reports from conference where the results were introduced.

But since you ask directly me for a prediction, let's say:
Seeds or seedlings treated inside an orgone accumulator will grow measurably faster and give higher yield than seeds put in a control box, that doesn't include metal layers in its construction, under otherwise equivalent circumstances.
(this one's from the conference link in previous paragraph)

Or let's say, that in water sample there will be measurable changes in evaporation and surface tension due to orgone-charging. (this one's from the front page)

I know, that doesn't look like much. Is this is what you want?

(18-12-2011 10:37 AM)Chas Wrote:  No one except a handful of founders were deists? Nonsense. The founders were a small fraction of the men of their class, many or most of whom were deists.
You mean literally? I meant it as a figure of speech. Dammit, now it looks like I move the goal posts. Maybe I should read again this Ron Miller and his book on holistic education ( "What are schools for?" ) to give you the exact chapter where this is described. Anyway, it's one of the first chapters. He lists these religious and dehumanizing (my word on top of my head, not his) tendencies as some of the five major influences in American society.
And to me personally it looks like these founding fathers made a secular constitution that everyone in America is doing their best to violate in school prayers and so on.
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18-12-2011, 03:53 PM
RE: Orgonomy: The Evidence
How exactly have you ruled out all other variables ? Prove to us it isn't an eletromagnetic field.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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18-12-2011, 11:35 PM
RE: Orgonomy: The Evidence
(18-12-2011 02:54 PM)Luminon Wrote:  Seeds or seedlings treated inside an orgone accumulator will grow measurably faster and give higher yield than seeds put in a control box, that doesn't include metal layers in its construction, under otherwise equivalent circumstances.

See Smile This is exactly a prediction. We don't ask that you should know everything about this, merely that you should be able to describe to us something like this, which we can then say "Aha, this is a hard concrete prediction. If the theory is correct then this will be true."

We do however have to rule out more mundane ways in which this could happen. As an example, take alien reports. Quite a large number of these involve mysterious lights in the sky moving in strange ways. I've never managed to figure out quite how people make the leap from strange lights to little green men, as there are *so many* natural and human made sources of light in the night sky.

In this case, Bucky Ball seems to be saying that you can get the same effect from electromagnetism. We'd prefer this explanation because it doesn't involve adding something extra to our theory of how stuff works - this is the Occam's Razor principle.
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21-12-2011, 03:29 AM (This post was last modified: 21-12-2011 04:23 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Orgonomy: The Evidence
(18-12-2011 02:02 PM)morondog Wrote:  Um... they were reasonable but slightly hostile. Credit to you for not getting annoyed - I feel slightly bad now, you were so nice in your reply... Confused

Regardless, I shall now tear your argument to shreds Tongue

Actually I shall go to bed, reread your post later and generally pay a bit more attention. However be aware that I'm gonna do my best to take your posts to pieces as has Chas Wink I'll be interested in your reply to his last post concerning predictions...
All right. I'm not very irritable, only my intellectual pride is. I'm friendly as a teddy bear as long as someone doesn't insult my intelligence. That's my job, recognizing where its limits are.

(18-12-2011 02:02 PM)morondog Wrote:  To me, this is not prediction, this is an *assertion* of the theory. The theory *asserts* that this substance exists. You do say though that it's concerned with living organisms and weather.
Well, I'm not very good at this. I don't know exactly how to go use the right words. You should have seen me when I learned about logical fallacies. Why do everyone write something about red herrings? This is not a fishing discussion. Smile

(18-12-2011 02:02 PM)morondog Wrote:  OK Smile *How* does it affect for example, the nerve system? That's question 1.
I don't know how. That's what I want to find out, because I know only what. I can describe the workings and feelings of etheric body, but from a human scale, not microscopic.
I can show you diagrams of the major channels and tell which ones give me a regular headache.

Besides that I have only assertions of how it works. I can tell that the big ganglial cells of nerve system are most packed with ether, or that there is an etheric cover all the nerve fibers and is necessary for transmission of signals. Plus some stuff about phantom limb syndrome. But these are just assertions. I don't know how much of that is precise and how much on expense of natural explanations that we already have. But I know how to find out. Just get someone like me under the fMRI machine and see directly the nerve and etheric system interacting and then maybe find out how.

(18-12-2011 02:02 PM)morondog Wrote:  Question 2 is: how do you know it's orgone and not something else?
Years and years of direct personal experience, sometimes interpersonal when circumstances were right. Plus lots of reading, science or otherwise and. Then the good old pattern-matching, which our brain is so good at. Does this experience fit on that theory?

I also have a three-step program. Firstly, is this internally consistent? Secondly, is it externally non-contradictory? Thirdly, is it externally confirmed?
With every step the idea grows in credibility, if it ever plants at all.
Of course, this is how I know and suppose to various degrees. As for objective evidence I search for other people who have it, to get the idea across.
(18-12-2011 03:53 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  How exactly have you ruled out all other variables ? Prove to us it isn't an eletromagnetic field.
All right. There is this Experimental life energy field meter. It's an invention of Wilhelm Reich, but improved with modern technology. It projects a field of displacement current, the stuff that makes a wire move when put in it, I suppose. But it does more than that. It measures, how much the field drops.

The field happens to drop in presence of certain objects. Specially objects that are living organisms or had anything to do with life. The more vitality, the greater is the field dampening and the greater value is displayed.
The experiment showed there shows decreasing measurements of vitality in a green leaf drying down. It is of course vacuum-sealed, so moisture remains the same.

The ELEFM does not measure any known electro-magnetic values. A piece of metal or plastic comb magnetized or unmagnetized, static-charged or uncharged should give the same value. Also temperature and so on.

I recommend to read through the linked articles, they provide details and more experimental data.
For example, there are some increased readings with metal sheets or liquid water (or the orgone accumulator iself), suggesting that these have to do with orgone flow, if only reflect it. Sure enough, metallic layers are essential for building a working orgone accumulator. And water is apparently a very orgone-friendly substance, when it can be charged or even gather orgone concentrations with its flow, just like electric current in a coil creates magnetic field. So then people like Miroslav Provod can come along with a dowsing stick and see it reacting to the water underground, or rather perhaps local orgone concentrations that it gathered over a long time.

I live in a miner country and there are lots of half-ruined mine tunnels in the region. Surprisingly, a dowser can find these too, as was the case in 70's with Stanislav Hruda, who localized dozens forgotten and buried mining facilities. Which disproves the rather ridiculous "explanation" of local post-commie skeptics that dowsing is a sub-conscious ideomotor reaction to seeing vegetation and landscape around where water is likely to be found. Anyway, their absolute negative assertions should be a warning sign enough.

Orgone is not EM field. It behaves more like a snowdrift in a snow storm on planetary scale.
Orgone flows or blows around, but if there is a sufficient trap for it, like orgone accumulator, it spontaneously accumulates within. Inside, there is a temperature change (which even modern instruments of today confirmed) and other measurable and/or visible effects on living organisms, water, vacuum tubes, zinc oxide sheets and so on.

As for the temperature changes inside orgone accumulator, the description of the long-term experiment and graphs can be found in this 2007 conference report.
This is a very controversial experiment, because Reich originally submitted it to peer-review of Einstein who repeated it succesfully. But Einstein attributed this to air convection. There is no evidence that Einstein repeated the experiment with revised version designed by Reich that would eliminate this possibility.
The contemporary version is of course also prevented against such things and has the advantage of modern technology and taking weather conditions into account.
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21-12-2011, 04:16 PM
RE: Orgonomy: The Evidence
(18-12-2011 11:35 PM)morondog Wrote:  We do however have to rule out more mundane ways in which this could happen. As an example, take alien reports. Quite a large number of these involve mysterious lights in the sky moving in strange ways. I've never managed to figure out quite how people make the leap from strange lights to little green men, as there are *so many* natural and human made sources of light in the night sky.
Probably they had read about Eduard "Billy" Meier, George Adamski, Steven M. Greer and the president of former Soviet republic Kalmykia, who describe extensive personal contacts with space neighbours. If their books were in a library of your childhood, your ladder of probability might be a little different Wink
Some esotericists do not hesitate to label the UFO space craft as products of civilizations living in fully etheric bodies, inhabiting planets otherwise hostile to life. According to them, many UFO sightings are result of their technology allowing them to temporarily "materialize" them and their equipment. They say it is impossible to understand UFO or extraterrestrial presence without taking the etheric world seriously.

One of good sources on spectacular UFO sightings is Ben Creme's magazine. He's the one who interpreted the Norway spiral light as UFO from the beginning, regardless of Russian missile test report. He did the same with Australian spiral rocket light. And Kazakhstan light. And Russian light. And Syberian. And Chinese spiral. And who knows how many others since then. I think saying these are missiles gives more questions than answers.Are faulty missiles so common that we don't talk about them anymore? Missiles from whom, against what target, and why do they have so much fuel leaking out? Hell, such fireworks in the sky during Cold War would provoke the green brains and get us all vaporized.

But here we are, only beginning to prove that there is such a thing as etheric matter, much less if any life involved with it. If this is proved, there is going to be a really embarrassing time of revisioning all the meteor and balloon sightings Tongue

(18-12-2011 11:35 PM)morondog Wrote:  In this case, Bucky Ball seems to be saying that you can get the same effect from electromagnetism. We'd prefer this explanation because it doesn't involve adding something extra to our theory of how stuff works - this is the Occam's Razor principle.
Well, sure. It only makes no sense at all. Orgone accumulator is basically a box with metallic insulation, among other layers. Anything electromagnetic should have a hard time getting inside. Instead orgone concentrates within and on top of other phenomena, temperature changes periodically. That would violate the law of preservation of energy, as a closed system spontaneously increasing its order. And the orgone charge is quite persistent, unlike a flash of EM radiation, which is gone in a moment.

I don't actually think something extra must be added. We need something that will explain several things at once. Drawing parallels and relationships between things we already know. Connecting the dots. If so, orgone is just a weird name for a variety of dark matter that can be found in our atmosphere and biosphere. The non-reactive dark matter out there may very well be composed of plasma and single sub-atomic particles. We need only supersymmetry, a cathegory of super-massive particles equivalent to the known particles, which is already quite popular.
Even among esotericists, etheric world is considered strictly material, no fancy extra-dimensional stuff. Half a spin difference and greater mass for the particles (and greater size, therefore lower density and greater distance of bonds) would be an ellegant solution.
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21-12-2011, 05:31 PM
RE: Orgonomy: The Evidence
$360 for a meter called experimental. Gotta give ya props for that. Big Grin

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21-12-2011, 11:25 PM
RE: Orgonomy: The Evidence
Hey Luminon. Thanks for the reply... will read through and think about it a bit Smile
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21-12-2011, 11:30 PM
RE: Orgonomy: The Evidence
(21-12-2011 05:31 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  $360 for a meter called experimental. Gotta give ya props for that. Big Grin
C''mon, $360 is a joke in the world of scientific government funding. What happened with the hundreds of millions? Even those guys with research on how to best pour beer into a glass got their million. Tongue
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22-12-2011, 01:20 AM
RE: Orgonomy: The Evidence
(21-12-2011 05:31 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  $360 for a meter called experimental. Gotta give ya props for that. Big Grin

I've got an Orgone Accumulator
It makes me feel greater
I'll see you sometime later
When I'm through with my Accumulator

It's no social integrator
It's a one man isolator
It's a back brain stimulator
It's a cerebral vibrator

...But an Orgone Accumulator
Is a superman creator

And when you're ready, send in $2,500 to me, that's the ticket. In return, you will get my tonic for baldness, and yes, gents, my dick enlarger cream. If you act now, and send me $5,000, we will send you a 2 week supply. Act now. Don't delay.

I have one small equation for these idiots ....E=MC^2. OMf'nG.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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