Origin's of Yawheh -- A thought
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28-03-2013, 01:49 AM
RE: Origin's of Yawheh -- A thought
btw, I will read those sources.. I appreciate you posting them, and hopefully they will provide some more clues into how yahweh had come to be a moon mountain GOD of fire, war, plagues, pestilence, and volcanic imagery ect.
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28-03-2013, 01:57 AM
RE: Origin's of Yawheh -- A thought
Yahweh was an alien in a space ship.
The fire was the exhaust from the space ship.
I saw it on the History Channel.
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28-03-2013, 03:08 AM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2013 11:21 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Origin's of Yawheh -- A thought
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28-03-2013, 04:12 AM (This post was last modified: 28-03-2013 04:18 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Origin's of Yawheh -- A thought
The picture has to make sense in the entire context of the known myth structure and cuture which has been pretty well fleshed out by by archaeology and scholarship of the entire ancient Near East. Your theory , Jackel, does not fit those criteria. Anyone can can connect any dot. It only makes sense to do so if the larger context supports it. It does not support your idea. A great deal is known about the ancient Near East. Are you in school somewhere ? Do you have a faculty advisor ? Or are you working totally on your own ? As was stated above, there was no Exodus, most likely. Canaan was already settled by Semites when it was supposed to have happened. The "missim" referred to in the Exodus event were reflective of a much later requirement for labor, and their hatred of the system. http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...olden+Calf

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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28-03-2013, 06:27 AM
RE: Origin's of Yawheh -- A thought
This thread is made of awesome. Thumbsup

Imma hafta read alla this stuff again later. Smartass

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
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28-03-2013, 09:23 AM
RE: Origin's of Yawheh -- A thought
(28-03-2013 01:57 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yahweh was an alien in a space ship.
The fire was the exhaust from the space ship.
I saw it on the History Channel.
Weeping

Oh come now lol, we aren't discussing aliens here or the History Channel Tongue Though that is pretty damn funny lol. It's one of those wild off the chart claims that is simply nonsensical. O.o
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28-03-2013, 03:17 PM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2013 11:21 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Origin's of Yawheh -- A thought
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29-03-2013, 03:45 AM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2013 04:12 AM by TheJackal.)
RE: Origin's of Yawheh -- A thought
Quote:But El had his mountain, as did Ba'al. The mountain YHWH is unknown--it is rather a made up place. Volcano . . . not volcano . . . I am not sure it is that important. Gods get connected to places and the weather rather readily. The Exodus is a completely mythic story in a mythic time. Trying to find a historical basis is a bit like, in my mind, trying to find a basis for Helen Mirren's armor in ancient Britain with whatever local Guy-with-Large-Stick who was the genesis of the Arthur legends!

I know they were considered Mountain Gods, but that's not the point, you can't find epithets of ba'al or EL in volcanic imagery prior to the introduction of Yahweh.. And I do think it is relevant because it's a consistent theme throughout the entirety of the bible. It has more significance than I think most scholars have given note to. If you read my articles on this it goes pretty deep.


Quote:Both Smith and Day discuss such, as well as his incorporation of El's attributes/epithets.

I agree, but they are not epithets in which Yahweh possesses. Yahweh is definitely a mixed breed.. The issue is that Yahweh's origins do not seem to simply rest with Ba'al or EL.

Quote:Well . . . the "Canaanites" were wont to do that as well--see the creation of Ba'al. They also had the other deities of relevant. I am not sure you need a Hyksos. Also, YHWH seems to come from a different region than Egypt. However, during periods of mythic formation, Egypt controlled the region--one of the hilarious bits about the whole Exodus myth is it takes them 40 years to travel what, if they all walked in a line they would have reached before the last man left Egypt, in to a region run by the Egyptians.

Spending 40 years in the desert is definitely a mythical story.. However, it does seem to be a propaganda piece and some elements seem to have some historical context for the time period it was written.. Though we may perhaps not need the Hyksos, but the purpose of this is to find out if Hyksos really had anything to do with the origins of Yahweh. They do match the best parrallel in accordance to the story of Exodus, they're eviction from Egypt had a lot to do with the Thera Eruption, the forms of ba'al that they worshiped match pretty well when combined in regards to they type of Ba'al GOD we find Yahweh to be, we also see that Moon GOd worship was very prevalent to which includes the height of Yah during the eviction period of the Hyksos... Now I know Yahweh is a deity in a different region than Egypt, but doesn't mean Yahweh entirely came from a separate region.., and the point is that region was well within the sphere of influence to which includes possible areas in which the Hyksos may have fled and withdrawn to. Since they are Canaanite in origin, it makes sense they would leave Egypt and return to Canaan. So the question is if they had any influence on the origins of Yahweh, or did cultural mixing within that sphere of influence simply spawn this cult of Yahweh? And either of those might be the case, or they may not be. I suspect it either or to be possible, and I suspect the Hyksos had become a part of the semi-nomadic tribes to which would include the Shasu of YHW.

Quote:The syncretism of Ba'al and Seth is interesting.

They are the same deity, it was just how the Hyksos introduced the worship of Ba'al into the Egyptian Pantheons. This is why it's such hallmark of how Yahweh seems to have appeared after their eviction from Egypt. So that lends to that interesting question I am looking to answer. I think it would be fascinating if this would turn out to be true.. So though I am basing this on a hunch, I think it does have some evidence and clues that make it a supported hunch worth looking into Smile

Quote:I would not be surprised. Ba'al is a lower deity--a more locative deity--where El had become the Big Daddy--rather remote. It would make sense to try to incorporate both the traditions of El--creator of the world--and Ba'al--the guy who does the dirty work--in an effort to create a henotheism then exclusive monotheism.

I think henotheism was much a part of Yahwism.. I do believe many of them were still rather Polytheistic and that strict Yahwism didn't really come to be until around the second Isaiah or 650-600 BCE... My personal opinion is that Yahweh is a mixed breed in which usurped the epithets of other deities through-out it's evolution. But we do know that at some point Yahweh usurps EL and gets Equated with EL.. However, I am looking further back in Yahweh's history here to try and find an answer of how Yahweh first came to be. Hence, a lot of the sources you provided deal more so with after the time period in which I am trying to look into. As in the Deuteronomy came much later than Exodus, but is highly reflective of Exodus concerning the description.. Yahweh in the bible first appears in the story of Exodus and gets Equated to El Shaddai ect. Hence the combining issue I've noted earlier.

[undefined=undefined]Probably because that is inaccurate. "Hallelujah"--הללויה--"Praise Yah"--which is a YHWH theophoric. No need to introduce "moon god." I am not convinced that YHWH is a moon god. There are other gods in the pantheon. As for the rest, I am not sure anyone has made a compelling case to link Iah to YHWH.
[/undefined]

The deity Sin and Mt Sinai pretty much already make it a moon god issue.. However, the sources provided are inaugurate? O.o I suspect you are saying the translations are incorrect? ... And I would agree that there isn't a very strong case in regards to Iah to Yahweh.. However, 'iah" is at the end of many Israelite names such as Isaiah. We know that names were often associated to specific deities such as El. Baeliah being a prime example to which means Baal is Iah, or master is Iah. That alone could be considered a connection, and Yahweh may perhaps be a congate of the Egyptian deity often spelled alternatively as aah, jah, yah, and Iah..

Now I don't usually post videos, but I am doing so here mainly due to the listed names that end in Iah:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PY5El3Ob92A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZbhXKMhEhY

Another thing to note is that Hallaluyah comes in different forms to which are consistent with the Egyptian Moon God's variances of jah, yah, ah, and Iah.

We know the Egyptians and the Israelites dealt with family structured Pantheons and that names are important clues as to the GOD's they associated with. Same with the naming of places like Bethel and Judah ect.. So it is reasonable to suggest the connect though I have no concrete evidence of it because little is known about Iah, and it may be that Iah came to be known mostly in the form of Yahrik. It's also important to note that the Egyptians and the Canaanites have had relations with possible connections of moon god worship:
Quote:Khirbet Kerak (Arabic: Khirbet al-Karak, "the ruins of the castle") or Beth Yerah (Hebrew: בית ירח , "House of the Moon (god)") is a tell located on the southern shore of the Sea of Galilee in modern day Israel.

Early Bronze Age (3300/3500-2200 BCE) - The 2009 discovery at the tell of a stone palette with Egyptian motifs, including an ankh,[9] points to trade/political relations with the First dynasty of Egypt, at approximately 3000 BCE.[10][11] Excavators have identified four levels of occupation from the Early Bronze Age (EB). Architectural development shows the procession from (sometimes oval) pit dwellings (I) to mud-brick (II), to basalt foundations with mud-brick (III), and then on to basalt structures (IV), over approximately 1000 years. The basalt houses belong to the same phase as the Khirbet al-Kerak pottery, dated to the Early Bronze Age III. From the earliest phases, the settlement was protected from the south and west by a city wall (the north and east facing the Sea of Galilee). The wall consisted of three connecting parallel walls, forming a massive wall, 25 feet (7.6 m) thick, built of mud-bricks. The gate was on the south and was built of basalt.[12] Evidence of an urban, orthogonal layout was found, dating to the EB II,[13] supporting the claim that the city was one of the regional urban centers of the period.[14]

Bet Yerah

Beth Yerah means "House of the Moon (god)".[16] Though it is not mentioned in the Hebrew Bible or other Bronze or Iron Age sources,[2] the name preserves part of the Canaanite toponym of Ablm (Heb. Abel), "the city/fort (qrt) of his-majesty Yarih" (also Ablm-bt-Yrh) which is mentioned in the 14th century BCE Epic of Aqht and is thought to be a reference to the Early Bronze Age structure extant at Khirbet Kerak.[17]

The name Bet Yerah has generally been accepted and applied to the site of Khirbet Kerak, though the evidence for its being located there is circumstantial.[18] Established in the Hellenistic period (c. 4th century BCE)

^ a b c Negev, Avraham, ed. (2001). Beth Yerah. pp. 88–89. ISBN 0-8264-1316-1.
^ a b Greenberg, Raphael (2005-03-30). "Tel Bet Yerah". Excavations and Surveys in Israel. Israel Antiquities Authority.
^ Encyclopedia of Prehistory, p.97
^ Encyclopedia of Prehistory, p.92
^ Milgrom, p. 638.
^ Baruch Margalit (1989). Baruch Margalit. ed. The Ugaritic poem of Aqht: text, translation, commentary. Walter de Gruyter. ISBN 0-89925-472-1, 9780899254722.
^ Douglas L. Esse (1991). Subsistence, trade, and social change in early Bronze Age Palestine (Illustrated ed.). Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. p. 35. ISBN 0-918986-66-4, 9780918986665.

To which is interestingly associated with Al-Sinnabra:
Quote:During the Roman period, a fortress was built there and the place became known and named for this feature.[2] The Jerusalem Talmud mentions Bet Yerah as sitting alongside Sinnabri (al-Sinnabra), describing both as walled cities,[1][3][4] but also uses the name Kerakh to refer to Bet Yerah.[2]

1^ a b c Milgrom, Jacob; Wright, David Pearson; Freedman, David Noel; Hurvitz, Avi (1995). Pomegranates and golden bells: studies in biblical, Jewish, and Near Eastern ritual, law, and literature
2^ a b c L. SUKENIK. "The Ancient City of Philoteria {Beth Yerah)". Journal of the Palestine Oriental Society. p. 107.
3^ Gil, 1997, p. 78, footnote #5.
4^ Lightfoot, John (2007). From the Talmud and Hebraica, Volume 1. Cosimo Inc. p. 142. ISBN 978-1-60206-406-5.

In Greek sources the name is transcribed as Sennabris. The name stems from Sinn, the Mesopotamian moon god. During this period, like many ancient cities in the region, it was given a Greek name, Philoteria, by Ptolemy II Philadelphus for his sister, as indicated by remains dating to the Ptolemaic rule (3rd century BCE). - Rafi Greenberg.

So the connections with Egyptian and Sumerian moon GOD worship likely already preexisted before Yahweh's introduction. I can see no other possible root for Yahweh when much of Yahweh's roots are deeply involved with moon GOD worship. At some point Yahwism came to be and began a monotheistic movement to which is essentially all those Gods put together if we really look at them all.. That of courses includes El Shaddia.. However, I think Yahweh's roots are more in the moon god's than the mountains gods of EL and El Shaddai. Exodus 6.3 gives the impression of equating Yahweh to El Shaddai for example as a means to modify and create a Moon Mountain GOD, or more specifically a Volcano GOD. It's definitely the usurping of various deities into one GOD. Another interesting clue is the names of sacred mountains.. Such as Mt Sinai (sinai may be a combination of the GOD sin and Ia) and Mt Mor"iah" is another example as is .. Again sacred mountains sometimes had the reference to their deities in their names.


Thus I think there is enough there to say it's certainly possible.. But I am looking to see if there is further evidence to either confirm or dismiss the Hyksos, and the possibility of Yahweh being connected to the Egyptian moon GOD. But I will agree that there definitely is not enough evidence, only enough to possibly infer..

Quote:Yet it is a completely different root--yrḥ--ירח--so I am not sure how any of that helps your attempt to connect YHWH with the moon.

Yarihk is also referred to similarly as is Yareach, Yerah , Yahrik, Yareah, and Yareach. Hence, are all likely a cognates of the Egyptian Moon GOD Yah. They don't even need to have the same meaning as the languages continued to evolve separately.. However it is known that Egyptians and the Hebrews had language correspondence with certain words, and this would likely be one of them.. This includes having "Yah" at the beginning of names vs Iah at the end of the names. Such as Yah-Hotep, or Yahshuah.. In many places in the bible to which includes Isaiah and Exodus, Yahweh is simple noted as "Yah". This concept is not just being tossed out there, it is supported by published work:

Dictionary of Egyptian Gods and Goddesses
By George Hart


In fact, Yah is still used today to refer to orbital Satellites:

http://spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=36809

Hence Yahsat, with a satilite kindly called Y 1A.. Now the deity Yah(aah) is older than the moon God Sin. Sin dates back to 2600 - 2400 BCE, and Yah dates back to The first ancient Egyptian calendar before it became anthropomorphized into a deity. And that dates back to around 4236 B.C.E. The changing phases of the moon were extremely important to the ancient Egyptians, and they were based on a lunar calender. And when did become a deity, we can note that Yah deals with "The bull is born" to which is an epithet in which is applied to the moon GOD sin. This to which gives us further connections to consider, and the source provided also mentions the Hyksos.

This is also an interesting source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ES_BNmC...ah&f=false

Quote:I do not think anyone argues that.

Agreed, I merely tossed that out there for conversation and to point out what we should take into consideration.

Quote:Not the same--he came from a different region. He became a rival deity under El it appears. In a way, El was the deity of the region. Different regions had different locative deities. Eventually, a "YHWH only" group tried to change the stories to remove references to other deities with only some success. To make a very complicated story short.

I'm not sure if it had to do with different regions as it had to do with a Yahwist cult that wanted their version worshiped over the others. If they are associated with the moon GOD sin, they should actually be worshiping the same ba'al as Sin was the same Ba'al god of Babylon and Canaan, and the same Ba'al GOD as Seth. So I think the issue was dealing with "their" version of ba'al to which seems to be a modified Moon Mountain God that usurps the Epithets of many of the Pagan GODs of the time. Hence ba'al in the separate form was rejected because that ba'al doesn't have all the epithets in their version of ba'al.. Hence, you don't find volcanic imagery, plagues ect in that version, or in dealing with EL.. We do find these if we combine many of the different versions of Ba'al with mountain gods such as El Shaddai and EL. It's almost like they tried to consolidate the pantheons in the region into one deity. This is perhaps the kind of religious and cultural impact in which the Thera super volcanic eruption had on Mesopotamia. It is very likely that the Yahwists had the perception of this Volcano and its Massive eruption possessing all the epithets of the majority of the GOD's worshiped in the region.

It spat fire, brought plagues, had power over the sun and moon, appeared to create land, ascending to the heavens as the most high, judge, separate the waters, have power over the weather, had power over the seas, shake the foundations of the Earth, and be lord of the hosts ect.
Quote:Oh . . . really? We have El identified as the creator of the world. People living away from mountains really do not care if it is a volcano, a mountain--or anything--we are dealing with a mythic space--map is not territory. I am not saying you are "wrong" to center on the possibility of the volcano, but perhaps you emphasize it more than necessary.

The God El does not posses volcanic imagery. We also have Ptah Identified and other forms of Ba'al identified with the same epithets as El. In fact, El may actually derive from the Egyptian deity Ptah.

Quote:The Egyptian god Ptah is given the title ḏū gitti 'Lord of Gath' in a prism from Lachish which has on its opposite face the name of Amenhotep II (c. 1435–1420 BCE) The title ḏū gitti is also found in Serābitṭ text 353. Cross (1973, p. 19) points out that Ptah is often called the lord (or one) of eternity and thinks it may be this identification of ʼĒl with Ptah that lead to the epithet ’olam 'eternal' being applied to ʼĒl so early and so consistently.[8]

^ Cross 1973, p. 19.

Hence, does this sound familiar to Christian concept of GOD?:

Quote:Ptah is the creator god par excellence: He is considered the demiurge who existed before all things, and by his willingness, thought the world. It was first conceived by Thought, and realized by the Word: Ptah conceives the world by the thought of his heart and gives life through the magic of his Word. That which Ptah commanded was created, with which the constituents of nature, fauna, and flora, are contained. He also plays a role in the preservation of the world and the permanence of the royal function.

In the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty, the Nubian pharaoh Shabaka would transcribe on a stela known as the Shabaka Stone, an old theological document found in the archives of the library of the temple of the god at Memphis. This document has been known as the Memphite Theology, and shows the god Ptah, the god responsible for the creation of the universe by thought and by the Word.

However, I was not addressing the shared epithets, I was addressing the epithets in which EL does not posses, and that is being of the volcanic nature, or even the bringer of plagues ect. El is also not a moon GOD, or associated with Mt Sinai. Hence the strongest imagery of Yahweh is that of Moon God worship tied in with geological and volcanic imagery to which is consistent through-out the entire bible. That is not something we find in relation to EL, or the traditional forms of ba'al individually. So it's prudent to figure out where all this comes from to have a more complete picture of the origins of Yahweh.

Ptah may have even been a Volcano god like Yahweh most likely is:

Quote:His Tatenen form is represented by a young and vigorous man wearing a crown with two tall plumes that surround the solar disk. He thus embodies the underground fire that rumbles and raises the earth. As such, he was particularly revered by metalworkers and blacksmiths, but he was equally feared because it was him who caused earthquakes and tremors of the earth's crust. In this form also, Ptah is the master of ceremonies for Heb Sed, a ceremony traditionally attesting to the first thirty years of the Pharaoh's reign.

The god Ptah could be opposite the sun god Re, or Aten during the Amarna period, where he embodied the divine essence with which the sun god was fed to come into existence, that is to say to be born, according to the Memphite mythological texts. In the holy of holies of his temple in Memphis, as well as in his great sacred boat, he drove in procession to regularly visit the region during major holidays. Ptah was also symbolized by two birds with human heads adorned with solar disks, symbols of the souls of the god Re: the Ba. The two Ba are also identified as the twin gods Shu and Tefnut and are associated with the djed pillar of Memphis.[3]

Finally, Ptah is embodied in the sacred bull, Apis. Frequently referred to as a herald of Re, the sacred animal is the link with the god Re from the New Kingdom. He even received worship in Memphis, probably at the heart of the great temple of Ptah, and its death was buried with all the honours due to a living god in the Serapeum of Saqqara.

Ptah was assimilated by the Greeks to the god Hephaistos and then by the Romans to Vulcan.

And this would have been within the knowledge of the Hyksos as well. Yahweh simple posses to may Egyptian deity epithets that it most likely has Egyptian roots in its origin. We already know that Christianity for the most part evolved out of Egypt, so this wouldn't be much of a surprise.

Quote:Save it happens in the wrong direction, and the tradition is the they were slaves rather than rulers/conquers of Egypt. Finding historical basis for the Exodus stories is really a very difficult thing. Again, you may be right, but I really do not see firm evidence. Current archaeological evidence has reduced the possible "Exodus" to "well, like, maybe a few slaves escaped!" If that is true you can see the extreme degree of mythmaking. This should not come as a surprise given the degrees to which the mythic reigns of David and Solomon expanded--you can see into that process comparing Chronicles to his source DH.

When have religious cults not been involved in extreme myth making? Tongue .. I would completely agree it's a mythical tale, but this issue is that it seems to be a mythical tale based around some sort of real event. Though I doubt they were slave, but they may have painted themselves as such as religious people often liked to play the victim.. But one thing we can note though is a the parallel of people getting the boot or withdrawing from Egypt in the time period to which coincides with the volcanic Imagery. That would be the Hyksos if it's based on any sort of historical event. Heck, wandering the dessert may just be them in Canaan as semi-nomadic tribes. We already know the Sinai Peninsula did not exist with the name "Sinai" in that time period.. Nobody knows where the real Sinai actually is. However, Mt Sinai is most likely in reference of Mt Thera and that specific event. That is the single event that matches the Exodus story the best, and within the same time period.. Myths always have some hidden truth in them.. Hence the plagues, blood red moon, the Nile turning blood red, people withdrawing from Egypt, Tsunami's, Egyptians cities being Destroyed, and the Volcanic nature of the events all pretty much did happen according to the evidence and science even though not as told in the embellished story concerning those events... Hence we know volcanoes don't talk, and up to a million people didn't leave Egypt either. But yet there is still some factual truth in which the story was based on.

Quote:Which might be part of the problem: people have been looking for events to spark myth. I do not think such is necessary.

But, who knows?

--J.D.

It's not necessary, but they get the volcanic imagery from somewhere, and the time in which the story was written, You had a major volcanic event to which could be seen as far east as Israel if not further.. And event that did lead to the eviction of the Hyksos, plagues, and regional turmoil and the triggering of the down fall of the bronze age. I think that is significant enough to consider it's not entirely based on myth. But that is my opinion considering I know much of religion is the anthropomorphism of natural phenomenon, and even embellishment of traumatic events such as Volcanic events, or floods ect. This is often fiction bases on non-fictional events.. And much the mythology stemming from having no understanding of what these events are. These sort of things can have big impacts on the religious, cultural, and geopolitical climate. And I think that is exactly what happened here.
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29-03-2013, 03:50 AM
RE: Origin's of Yawheh -- A thought
I will definitely say this though, I don't have proof here. I just have a hypothesis to which may or may not be true or perhaps somewhat true. So until we find some hard evidence, it's indeed pretty speculative. And I hope the sources you provide me will help give me a more clearer picture to this obscure Deity's origins.
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29-03-2013, 04:12 AM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2013 11:21 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Origin's of Yawheh -- A thought
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