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14-06-2016, 10:14 AM
Orlando
From a Christian perspective, what does it mean to pray for the families and victims of a tragedy? The Orlando night club for example. What exactly are you praying for?

We're told, God didn't cause this to happen. But we're to pray to him for mercy? Comfort? From what I've read, this God seems to get off on the suffering of people. I don't need to provide examples, instances of his lust for pain and suffering are rife throughout the OT. So, what kind of mercy are we expecting when we pray to him? And, why the hell do we have to beg for his mercy? These are questions that a rational non-believer asks when something like this happens.

Religion will never go away. The reality is that human beings will always be beset by tragedies so big an horrific that our minds can't handle them. And, individually and collectively we won't have answers to why they happened or how do we prevent them from happening again. This is where the irrational mind kicks in and we begin to imagine that an all powerful and almighty being exists who will comfort us, protect us and heal us. The ability for our mind to do this is a powerful way to keep from going insane I suppose.

That's my personal opinion about it because I used to be able to experience an incredible calming effect by praying whenever I was amped up with a lot of stress and anxiety. But, this isn't unique to me. You see examples of many strong, resilient people who derive their strength through a deep belief in God. That's why I say, it will never go away.

"Why hast thou forsaken me, o deity whose existence I doubt..." - Dr. Sheldon Cooper
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14-06-2016, 11:35 AM
RE: Orlando
Christian "Dear god, please help stop all this violence."
God -"The violence is all part of my plan. PS. You're going to be raped and tortured later tonight. You can thank me later."

Christian "Why would you do that ?"
God "I'm mysterious."

Christian "That doesn't answer why you would do that."
God -"All part of my plan."

Christian -"You're suppose to be good, merciful, kind"
God -"Ha ha ha ha. Have you not read my book ? I'm a genocidal murderer who may ask you to kill your own child just for kicks."

Christian -"Are you insane ?"
God -"You're the one talking to yourself."

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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14-06-2016, 12:02 PM
RE: Orlando
They're praying to make themselves feel better about the uncertainty of the world. It's a way of doing something without actually getting involved and doing something.

Same reason people prayed Zeus or any of the other now defunct gods.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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14-06-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: Orlando
I don't get prayer at all, even when I was a kid I didn't think it made any difference because...well it just didn't make any difference in my life whatsoever, I used to pray to protect my family and then I'd have to watch one of my siblings get beat by my own father the next day, where was he? Probably busy helping some pedophile priest get moved to a new town after getting caught with his pants down.

I honestly think all those Christians who are so against gay marriage and equal rights are in a pickle. Their Bible clearly states that homosexuals should be put to death. Then they are killed and it's a terrible senseless tragedy, born of ignorance, fear and pure hate and they want to pray to God about it?

The God that said they are an abomination? Why would he care? If anything he's super stoked about it. I understand if they are sad and all but there have already been Christian church leaders who sympathize with the shooter and feel it was God's plan/wrath in action. It's sickening and they turn around act like they are good, wholesome people. I hate what religion can do to the mind, it destroys all empathy.

Christian Pastor’s Message About Orlando Massacre: Don’t “Say It’s a Tragedy, Because It’s Not”

Pat Robertson: Gays & Islamists Are Allies So Christians Should Just Let Them Kill Each Other

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14-06-2016, 07:53 PM
RE: Orlando
Pastor Robert Jiminez: The tragedy is that more of them didn't die
Westboro Baptist Church: Seems only right

The shooter's motives are being slowly uncovered, dissected, and speculated upon. He declared himself for multiple terrorist organizations during the attack -- including at least two that are violently opposed to each other -- but does not appear to have been directed by or connected to any of them. It's speculated that maybe he was thrown into a rage by seeing two men kissing in the street, or that he himself was closeting his gay impulses, or on and on and on. Some people on the left are blaming lack of gun control, but as he was a security guard who had passed multiple background checks and had been investigated and passed over by the FBI, that probably wouldn't have made a difference in this particular case. People on the right are blaming a lack of immigration controls, but again, given that he was a native-born American citizen, that wouldn't have made a difference in this case.

But what's difficult to avoid is that this crime involved a deep and broad hatred of the LGBT community (even in his case if it was a self-hatred), a hatred held by much of society, and a hatred rooted deep in the holy texts of all the Abrahamic religions. The degree to which Muslims and Christians (and even Jews) can be decent, civilized human beings can be measured, in no small part, in the degree to which they can forget, rationalize away, or simply blatantly disregard the passages calling upon believers to kill exactly the people this man killed. I am not the least bit surprised to discover that some Christians, including leaders of entire churches, are celebrating this moment. That hatred is too deeply laced throughout the Abrahamic faiths for there to have been any other outcome. While most Christians and Muslims will condemn, and are condemning, this particular act, and while some have even rejected that hatred entirely, finding new and interesting ways to interpret their religion that allows them to embrace the LGBT community as fellow humans possessing their own dignity and right to exist, this sort of victimization will continue for at least as long as the Abrahamic faiths exist, and it will only end when the last believer puts away their holy text for the last time.
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14-06-2016, 10:54 PM
RE: Orlando
(14-06-2016 07:53 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Pastor Robert Jiminez: The tragedy is that more of them didn't die
Westboro Baptist Church: Seems only right

The shooter's motives are being slowly uncovered, dissected, and speculated upon. He declared himself for multiple terrorist organizations during the attack -- including at least two that are violently opposed to each other -- but does not appear to have been directed by or connected to any of them. It's speculated that maybe he was thrown into a rage by seeing two men kissing in the street, or that he himself was closeting his gay impulses, or on and on and on. Some people on the left are blaming lack of gun control, but as he was a security guard who had passed multiple background checks and had been investigated and passed over by the FBI, that probably wouldn't have made a difference in this particular case. People on the right are blaming a lack of immigration controls, but again, given that he was a native-born American citizen, that wouldn't have made a difference in this case.

But what's difficult to avoid is that this crime involved a deep and broad hatred of the LGBT community (even in his case if it was a self-hatred), a hatred held by much of society, and a hatred rooted deep in the holy texts of all the Abrahamic religions. The degree to which Muslims and Christians (and even Jews) can be decent, civilized human beings can be measured, in no small part, in the degree to which they can forget, rationalize away, or simply blatantly disregard the passages calling upon believers to kill exactly the people this man killed. I am not the least bit surprised to discover that some Christians, including leaders of entire churches, are celebrating this moment. That hatred is too deeply laced throughout the Abrahamic faiths for there to have been any other outcome. While most Christians and Muslims will condemn, and are condemning, this particular act, and while some have even rejected that hatred entirely, finding new and interesting ways to interpret their religion that allows them to embrace the LGBT community as fellow humans possessing their own dignity and right to exist, this sort of victimization will continue for at least as long as the Abrahamic faiths exist, and it will only end when the last believer puts away their holy text for the last time.

Interestingly, it appears that Shariah (sp?) cannot be applied to non-Muslims, so Islam does not sanction the Orlando shooter's actions. Even if Shariah did apply, the victims were killed without being properly judged in an Islamic court, and the killings were therefore illegal and, according to Islamic teaching, a sin.

Rather than assuming, making it up, or just plain lying about what mainstream Islam teaches, I asked an Islamic scholar.

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14-06-2016, 11:00 PM
RE: Orlando
Does this subject really require 3 threads???

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
Banjo.
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15-06-2016, 12:06 AM (This post was last modified: 15-06-2016 12:16 AM by Reltzik.)
RE: Orlando
(14-06-2016 10:54 PM)jabeady Wrote:  
(14-06-2016 07:53 PM)Reltzik Wrote:  Pastor Robert Jiminez: The tragedy is that more of them didn't die
Westboro Baptist Church: Seems only right

The shooter's motives are being slowly uncovered, dissected, and speculated upon. He declared himself for multiple terrorist organizations during the attack -- including at least two that are violently opposed to each other -- but does not appear to have been directed by or connected to any of them. It's speculated that maybe he was thrown into a rage by seeing two men kissing in the street, or that he himself was closeting his gay impulses, or on and on and on. Some people on the left are blaming lack of gun control, but as he was a security guard who had passed multiple background checks and had been investigated and passed over by the FBI, that probably wouldn't have made a difference in this particular case. People on the right are blaming a lack of immigration controls, but again, given that he was a native-born American citizen, that wouldn't have made a difference in this case.

But what's difficult to avoid is that this crime involved a deep and broad hatred of the LGBT community (even in his case if it was a self-hatred), a hatred held by much of society, and a hatred rooted deep in the holy texts of all the Abrahamic religions. The degree to which Muslims and Christians (and even Jews) can be decent, civilized human beings can be measured, in no small part, in the degree to which they can forget, rationalize away, or simply blatantly disregard the passages calling upon believers to kill exactly the people this man killed. I am not the least bit surprised to discover that some Christians, including leaders of entire churches, are celebrating this moment. That hatred is too deeply laced throughout the Abrahamic faiths for there to have been any other outcome. While most Christians and Muslims will condemn, and are condemning, this particular act, and while some have even rejected that hatred entirely, finding new and interesting ways to interpret their religion that allows them to embrace the LGBT community as fellow humans possessing their own dignity and right to exist, this sort of victimization will continue for at least as long as the Abrahamic faiths exist, and it will only end when the last believer puts away their holy text for the last time.

Interestingly, it appears that Shariah (sp?) cannot be applied to non-Muslims, so Islam does not sanction the Orlando shooter's actions. Even if Shariah did apply, the victims were killed without being properly judged in an Islamic court, and the killings were therefore illegal and, according to Islamic teaching, a sin.

Rather than assuming, making it up, or just plain lying about what mainstream Islam teaches, I asked an Islamic scholar.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I337 using Tapatalk

Oh, I'm not saying that this is what the religion as a whole teaches, and certainly not what the mainstream teaches. I'm saying that there's a strong streak of homophobia within the religious text, including instructions to kill gay people. (Whatever the correct methodology.) I'll further say that the presence of these religious condemnations of the LGBT community is at the base of the bulk of persecution against them in the world, whether it's vigilante murder or simply denying them jobs, ostracizing them from the family, throwing them in jail, meting out lashes, or simply slandering them as pedophiles. And it should be noted that just because under (some interpretations of) Islamic law a court is required, doesn't always stop fanatics from going ahead without a court anyway, and doing so BECAUSE of what the Koran says, even if there's a verse that they missed or forgot or ignored elsewhere telling them to do something else or to do the same thing a different way.

For the record, I'm not disputing with your scholar contact about what the correct interpretation of Islam is. As far as I'm concerned, the religion is however it's practiced, and there's no Platonic ideal "correct" version. Certainly, how it's actually practiced has more impact on our world than how it "should", under someone's interpretation, be practiced. And the way it's practiced, as I said above, is often kindly, sometimes with tolerance, but also sometimes utterly viciously.

Also, IF all the victims had been Muslims, and IF they had first been dragged before and judged by a religious court before being gunned down, I would be about equally disgusted with the religion for it. Dressing it up with a trial and applying the violence only within one's own community... or, rather, by a privileged majority of one's own community against a marginalized subset of one's own community... doesn't make it any less of an atrocity.

So, tell me. What part of what I said above, or here, is an assumption? What part is made up? What part is a lie? What part is any of these things, even if you can't identify which one it is? Or were you not actually implying that I was doing any of these things?
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15-06-2016, 01:05 AM
RE: Orlando
(14-06-2016 10:14 AM)mgoering Wrote:  From a Christian perspective, what does it mean to pray for the families and victims of a tragedy? The Orlando night club for example. What exactly are you praying for?

We're told, God didn't cause this to happen. But we're to pray to him for mercy? Comfort? From what I've read, this God seems to get off on the suffering of people. I don't need to provide examples, instances of his lust for pain and suffering are rife throughout the OT. So, what kind of mercy are we expecting when we pray to him? And, why the hell do we have to beg for his mercy? These are questions that a rational non-believer asks when something like this happens.

Religion will never go away. The reality is that human beings will always be beset by tragedies so big an horrific that our minds can't handle them. And, individually and collectively we won't have answers to why they happened or how do we prevent them from happening again. This is where the irrational mind kicks in and we begin to imagine that an all powerful and almighty being exists who will comfort us, protect us and heal us. The ability for our mind to do this is a powerful way to keep from going insane I suppose.

That's my personal opinion about it because I used to be able to experience an incredible calming effect by praying whenever I was amped up with a lot of stress and anxiety. But, this isn't unique to me. You see examples of many strong, resilient people who derive their strength through a deep belief in God. That's why I say, it will never go away.

I agree in that religion will likely never go away, but this isn't due to it's calming effect or rationalization, it's due to fear. It's Human to fear death and to fear the unknown. The unknown could bring death in many way, you simply do not know. You're predisposed in your mind to fear the unknown. However, this "fear" is a logical driver, a motivator. For some, it motivates you to irrationalize hypothesis that merely requires confirmation bias to justify - hence religion. For others, they'll conquer the fear head on and directly investigate the said unknown, and in doing so uncover the unknown itself, revealing; removing the fear.

These are the two fundamental ways of dealing with that fear. Don't think that as an Atheist, one wouldn't have a fear of death either. At one point, I could feel that fear myself. I conquered it though through the pursuit of knowledge. What I discovered was that it wasn't just the knowledge that was fulfilling, but the pursuit itself (the journey).

From my past Christian self, I cannot tell you what Prayer was actually for. It only has one purpose that I ever truly understood - Reverence or acknowledging your Fear in the Lord.

Yup.

It's not for cuddly purposes. It literally has no other reason. Prayer doesn't change shit. Most of the of time Xtians will pray (including myself back then) in RESPONSE to a tragedy or cataclysm, not PRIOR to. We're always Praying FOR, but never BEFORE. Because we can never know what's going to happen. Sometimes, we'll pray and ask God for a better outcome, but what does it matter? When that bad outcome hits you instead of the good one, you pray to God some more "help me get through this test". When you cannot get out've that situation, you pray more then? Do you think you're really changing anything?

No. The only purpose of Prayer is to acknowledge your FEAR of God; that you've got no control and that supposedly, he does. It's begging. It's straight up begging and groveling. Hell, I know my own parents are going to say "we prayed for those effected" and I'll rebuke "and what good is that going to do them?"

They're never going to have an answer to that. They can never know. All they can do is respond to an event and go "Oh God Oh God, thanks for letting that not be me, Please don't let that be me! Oh God! I Don't want to Die/Be Poor/Turn Gay/Lose the Baseball Game ect.ect" and all sorts of dumb, irrational, fear mongering, selfish shit. Prayer doesn't mean anything, but fear.
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15-06-2016, 06:17 AM
RE: Orlando
It's a sign of the ultimate abusive relationship.

God either causes, or does not stop, some sort of suffering but he is also the only one to turn to for relief...or so the story goes.

And the relief isn't a sure thing no matter how earnestly you pray.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat

Are my Chakras on straight?
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