Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
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13-05-2015, 11:35 PM
Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
Currently, the news has reported on claims made that the Seal Team Six narrative about the death of Osama was not entirely correct. I focus on a specific claim:

Quote:And so the deal was it was not to be announced. We were going to go kill the guy. That was, of course, the mission. That’s why the President had to talk about a firefight. There was not firefight. They’ve actually acknowledged that within a few days of the raid; the White House did. Bin Laden did not have an AK and wasn’t being — cowering behind some woman as was initially said.
Source

Earlier reporting backs up this claim:

Quote:According to the White House, Osama bin Laden was shot to death during a raid on his compound when he "resisted" the raid team.

Also according to the White House, bin Laden was not armed when confronted by the raid team.

Which raises the question: How did bin Laden resist the raid without a weapon?

Asked about this issue at his briefing Tuesday, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney said "resistance does not require a firearm." He declined to elaborate further.
Source

Thus, the question that begs to be asked is the reason for the killing. However, let us ignore that portion and focus on the actual act of terminating a persons life. According to the Fifth Amendment:

Quote:No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, ... nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.

Personally, I cannot see how Obama could have commanded the killing, as Commander-in-Chief, of a person that could have been subdued by Navy SEALS and still be in the good graces of the Constitution.

Note how the Fifth Amendment says, "No Person" instead of citizen, the people, resident, etc. As a person that voted for Obama, I see this claims if true, as a betrayal of the Constitution Obama swore to uphold. The justifications spouted off by the propaganda persons are even more troubling, when due process can mean a conversation over coffee with the attorney general about the rights protecting not only Americans but all people.

What say you?
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13-05-2015, 11:51 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
Pretty sure that "Osama was cowering" was never part of the official report.

Also, you're conveniently leaving out a crucial part in the Fifth Amendment:

Quote:"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger;...
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14-05-2015, 11:40 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(13-05-2015 11:51 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  
Quote:"No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger;...

Was Osama Bin Laden a sworn member of the armed forces of the United States? I ask because the bolded section states :

Quote:except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger;...

So an exemption is that it is within land and naval fores or the militia while serving during a time of war / public danger. Now you can take the other position that a persons (lets say of My Lai) human rights protected by the Constitution are rendered alien when its a US service member doing the killing and the US is in danger / war. Note that adopting the former renders you incapable of criticizing the civilian collateral damage in US conflicts (on a Constitutional basis) because that adopted logic is that they do not have Constitutional rights.
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14-05-2015, 12:09 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(13-05-2015 11:35 PM)Gatheist Wrote:  Personally, I cannot see how Obama could have commanded the killing, as Commander-in-Chief, of a person that could have been subdued by Navy SEALS and still be in the good graces of the Constitution.

Note how the Fifth Amendment says, "No Person" instead of citizen, the people, resident, etc. As a person that voted for Obama, I see this claims if true, as a betrayal of the Constitution Obama swore to uphold. The justifications spouted off by the propaganda persons are even more troubling, when due process can mean a conversation over coffee with the attorney general about the rights protecting not only Americans but all people.

What say you?

The Constitution holds no sway in a foreign land. It doesn't apply to non-citizens outside the borders of America.

If bin-Laden wanted Constitutional protections, he should have come to America and surrendered to authorities here.
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14-05-2015, 12:16 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(14-05-2015 11:40 AM)Gatheist Wrote:  
(13-05-2015 11:51 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  

Was Osama Bin Laden a sworn member of the armed forces of the United States? I ask because the bolded section states :

Quote:except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger;...

So an exemption is that it is within land and naval fores or the militia while serving during a time of war / public danger. Now you can take the other position that a persons (lets say of My Lai) human rights protected by the Constitution are rendered alien when its a US service member doing the killing and the US is in danger / war. Note that adopting the former renders you incapable of criticizing the civilian collateral damage in US conflicts (on a Constitutional basis) because that adopted logic is that they do not have Constitutional rights.

Most people aren't criticizing collateral damage on constitutional bases. Usually it's done in on a moral base. You can criticize things and find them legally sound. It's just depending on the situation.

There was never anything outlawing this type or attack when there was a war and a target sought after in plenty of considered missions and searches. The biggest and only real significant issue with this action itself(before the aftermath things) was the international territory issue of going into Pakistan in the manner in which they did.

Drone strikes are of a different degree that are far more constitutionally questionable because they're not done so definitively clearly in the mission of acts of war.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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14-05-2015, 12:58 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(13-05-2015 11:35 PM)Gatheist Wrote:  Currently, the news has reported on claims.....

What say you?

I don't care what the circumstances are, I'm glad the fucker is dead.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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14-05-2015, 02:24 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(14-05-2015 12:09 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(13-05-2015 11:35 PM)Gatheist Wrote:  Personally, I cannot see how Obama could have commanded the killing, as Commander-in-Chief, of a person that could have been subdued by Navy SEALS and still be in the good graces of the Constitution.

Note how the Fifth Amendment says, "No Person" instead of citizen, the people, resident, etc. As a person that voted for Obama, I see this claims if true, as a betrayal of the Constitution Obama swore to uphold. The justifications spouted off by the propaganda persons are even more troubling, when due process can mean a conversation over coffee with the attorney general about the rights protecting not only Americans but all people.

What say you?

The Constitution holds no sway in a foreign land. It doesn't apply to non-citizens outside the borders of America.

If bin-Laden wanted Constitutional protections, he should have come to America and surrendered to authorities here.

This.

Paleoliberal • English Nationalist • Zionist • Rightist • Anti-Islam • Neoconservative • Republican • Linguistic Revivalist and Purist

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14-05-2015, 02:56 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(14-05-2015 12:58 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(13-05-2015 11:35 PM)Gatheist Wrote:  Currently, the news has reported on claims.....

What say you?

I don't care what the circumstances are, I'm glad the fucker is dead.

It's hard to argue with good results.................

.......................................

The difference between prayer and masturbation - is when a guy is through masturbating - he has something to show for his efforts.
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14-05-2015, 03:33 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
So now the Obama haters are criticizing him for killing the man behind the 9/11 terrorist attacks? They're criticizing him for killing the man that G.W. Bush swore to hunt down and kill? These doofuses have their undies in a knot because they just can't stand the idea that a man of mixed racial heritage got elected president over a brain-dead Republican with a rabid religious bigot for a running mate. They'd probably declare apple pie to be a communist plot if Obama said he liked it. Shit, in the last Presidential election Romney went ballistic against Obama for advocating a health care plan that is practically a carbon copy of the plan Romney himself enacted in his own state when he was governor.

Just to be clear, I don't think much of Obama as President. And the worst things about Obama are that he's doing things pretty much the same as the president before him. But I've got this message for the haters: If you still hate everyone whose skin is a different color than your own, or whose sexual orientation is different than yours, or who speaks a different language than you do, well, as Bob Dylan said: "The times, they are a-changin'." Your racist, homophobic, xenophobic world is crumbling. You can stew in your own grease about it or you can come into the 21st century.

"El mar se mide por olas,
el cielo por alas,
nosotros por lágrimas."
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14-05-2015, 04:50 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
For better or worse, right or wrong, Obama's role in the Osama hunt simply involved giving permission for the assault. Most of the relevant facts were gathered when water boarding was still allowed. The presidents in both cases were little more than symbols.

'Murican Canadian
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