Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
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15-05-2015, 05:51 PM
Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 05:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  Shooting an unarmed person with no access to a weapon, and that is now the accusation, is never a legal act unless it's a firing squad

In this case, why would anyone give a fuck?
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15-05-2015, 05:55 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 05:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  Shooting an unarmed person with no access to a weapon, and that is now the accusation, is never a legal act unless it's a firing squad

Yeah, perhaps we should have just hung around and shot him after he shot or ordered someone else to shoot or kill someone in another manner. Seems fair. Let's not kill a murderer unless they are caught in the act or prepared to commit the act.

Let those past murders go...all of them.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

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15-05-2015, 06:01 PM (This post was last modified: 15-05-2015 06:42 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 05:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  Shooting an unarmed person with no access to a weapon, and that is now the accusation, is never a legal act unless it's a firing squad

All the unindicted police clearly guilty of shooting unarmed persons would seem to undermine that statement.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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15-05-2015, 06:35 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 05:55 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 05:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  Shooting an unarmed person with no access to a weapon, and that is now the accusation, is never a legal act unless it's a firing squad

Yeah, perhaps we should have just hung around and shot him after he shot or ordered someone else to shoot or kill someone in another manner. Seems fair. Let's not kill a murderer unless they are caught in the act or prepared to commit the act.

Let those past murders go...all of them.

I'm 100% sure I didn't suggest anything close to that. Your not down to two options of summary execution or letting him go free. And, I'm pretty sure you know that.

As for why anyone would give a fuck, we've spent the last 12 years exporting American values and democracy at the point of a gun. Not being able to live up to our own laws makes us look like a bunch of murderous hypocrites. If you don't think that could have an impact on the Muslim world, you've not been paying attention.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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15-05-2015, 06:44 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 06:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 05:55 PM)Anjele Wrote:  Yeah, perhaps we should have just hung around and shot him after he shot or ordered someone else to shoot or kill someone in another manner. Seems fair. Let's not kill a murderer unless they are caught in the act or prepared to commit the act.

Let those past murders go...all of them.

I'm 100% sure I didn't suggest anything close to that. Your not down to two options of summary execution or letting him go free. And, I'm pretty sure you know that.

As for why anyone would give a fuck, we've spent the last 12 years exporting American values and democracy at the point of a gun. Not being able to live up to our own laws makes us look like a bunch of murderous hypocrites. If you don't think that could have an impact on the Muslim world, you've not been paying attention.

I have tremendous respect for you. We are quite divided on this subject and I would rather not damage any future interaction between us.

I do think that saying shooting Osama when he was unarmed was completely wrong is upsetting. I don't know...the topic of Osama, his actions, his directives, and his legacy are too multifaceted to address here.

How his death affected the Muslim world, and by extension everyone else, seems too simple. If not him, there are others - his followers, his inner circle...or someone else altogether. He was not the be all and end all of extremist Muslim leaders. He was just at the top for a long time.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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15-05-2015, 06:54 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 05:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  Shooting an unarmed person with no access to a weapon, and that is now the accusation, is never a legal act unless it's a firing squad

Agreed. Seal team 6 was the firing squad.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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15-05-2015, 07:06 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 06:44 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 06:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  I'm 100% sure I didn't suggest anything close to that. Your not down to two options of summary execution or letting him go free. And, I'm pretty sure you know that.

As for why anyone would give a fuck, we've spent the last 12 years exporting American values and democracy at the point of a gun. Not being able to live up to our own laws makes us look like a bunch of murderous hypocrites. If you don't think that could have an impact on the Muslim world, you've not been paying attention.

I have tremendous respect for you. We are quite divided on this subject and I would rather not damage any future interaction between us.

I do think that saying shooting Osama when he was unarmed was completely wrong is upsetting. I don't know...the topic of Osama, his actions, his directives, and his legacy are too multifaceted to address here.

How his death affected the Muslim world, and by extension everyone else, seems too simple. If not him, there are others - his followers, his inner circle...or someone else altogether. He was not the be all and end all of extremist Muslim leaders. He was just at the top for a long time.

First - ditto.

Second, I never said it was wrong. That's a moral judgement. I said if they just shot him for no reason, which is now being alleged, it was illegal and a criminal act. That's not a moral judgement, it's a clinical assessment.

I used to live just out side NYC. I saw the smoke from my house. I went to highschool with someone who died. My wife and I knew people who were there, including my sister's husband (he's fine). I get it. More than most because I was close to it.

My opinion is still that we have to be who we claim to be. As evil as bin Ladin was, he was never a big threat to the US. Compare him to the Nazis, who did pose a real threat, and he's a footnote. But, after WWII we still tried the leaders of both the Germany and Japan. Due process and the rule of law prevailed. I consider that a very proud moment for the US. We've strayed way too far from our core values in my opinion.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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15-05-2015, 07:33 PM
Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 06:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  As for why anyone would give a fuck, we've spent the last 12 years exporting American values and democracy at the point of a gun. Not being able to live up to our own laws makes us look like a bunch of murderous hypocrites. If you don't think that could have an impact on the Muslim world, you've not been paying attention.

When has the U.S. Government lived up to its own laws? Are you naive?

And what impact has it had on the Muslim world? Do they hate us now? They already hated us so this didn't change a thing. They are fanatical fucks that will never give a shit about us either way.

I am glad that Osama was shot and killed. I don't care if he was in the fetal position crying like a baby when it happened. I hope his brains splattered the wall behind him.
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15-05-2015, 09:40 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
No, I am not naive. And, throwing up a strawman to excuse illegal behavior is pathetic.

Second, the idea that they just hate us and there is nothing we can do about it is bullshit. They don't hate us for our freedoms, they hate us for our hypocrisy. Except for the real fanatics who just hate everyone. But we are driving more people to them. We are creating more enemies. The CIA has a term for this: blowback.

Finally, I don't care about bin Ladin either. He's not relevant to the point.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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15-05-2015, 10:13 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 05:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  Shooting an unarmed person with no access to a weapon, and that is now the accusation, is never a legal act unless it's a firing squad

Accusation, not fact.

We will likely never know whether or not he had access to a weapon, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts a weapon was near at hand.

It was a legal kill.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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