Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
16-05-2015, 12:19 AM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2015 12:36 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 10:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 05:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  Shooting an unarmed person with no access to a weapon, and that is now the accusation, is never a legal act unless it's a firing squad

Accusation, not fact.

We will likely never know whether or not he had access to a weapon, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts a weapon was near at hand.

It was a legal kill.

Dude's mission was to get OBL. If he tried to take him alive he and his whole team could very well have ended up dead. His call. 'Nuff said.

#sigh
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like GirlyMan's post
16-05-2015, 01:04 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 05:19 PM)BnW Wrote:  I'd also like to add that US citizens are always protected by the Constitution regardless of where they are.

Our servicemen and -women have limitations upon some of their constitutional rights during the duration of their national service. Living in the barracks, my quarters were subject to search at no notice, with no warrant, and with full criminal liability. That's one example; there are others.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2015, 01:11 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 06:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  I'm 100% sure I didn't suggest anything close to that. Your not down to two options of summary execution or letting him go free. And, I'm pretty sure you know that.

As for why anyone would give a fuck, we've spent the last 12 years exporting American values and democracy at the point of a gun. Not being able to live up to our own laws makes us look like a bunch of murderous hypocrites. If you don't think that could have an impact on the Muslim world, you've not been paying attention.

If you think it's only been the last twelve years that we've imposed our values on the Muslim world at gunpoint, it's you who has been blithe.

I'm pretty sure that bin Laden was considered an enemy combatant in a leadership position, meaning that under the executive order -- not law -- the act was legal. Now, if he had tried to surrender, killing him was certainly a violation of the Geneva Convention. But no American law was broken in the operation.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2015, 02:05 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(16-05-2015 01:11 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 06:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  I'm 100% sure I didn't suggest anything close to that. Your not down to two options of summary execution or letting him go free. And, I'm pretty sure you know that.

As for why anyone would give a fuck, we've spent the last 12 years exporting American values and democracy at the point of a gun. Not being able to live up to our own laws makes us look like a bunch of murderous hypocrites. If you don't think that could have an impact on the Muslim world, you've not been paying attention.

If you think it's only been the last twelve years that we've imposed our values on the Muslim world at gunpoint, it's you who has been blithe.

I'm pretty sure that bin Laden was considered an enemy combatant in a leadership position, meaning that under the executive order -- not law -- the act was legal. Now, if he had tried to surrender, killing him was certainly a violation of the Geneva Convention. But no American law was broken in the operation.


The law isn't violated until we start unilaterally executing our own citizens abroad with drone strikes under executive orders.

Oh wait, we've already done that.

[Image: E3WvRwZ.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
16-05-2015, 02:14 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(16-05-2015 02:05 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(16-05-2015 01:11 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  If you think it's only been the last twelve years that we've imposed our values on the Muslim world at gunpoint, it's you who has been blithe.

I'm pretty sure that bin Laden was considered an enemy combatant in a leadership position, meaning that under the executive order -- not law -- the act was legal. Now, if he had tried to surrender, killing him was certainly a violation of the Geneva Convention. But no American law was broken in the operation.


The law isn't violated until we start unilaterally executing our own citizens abroad with drone strikes under executive orders.

Oh wait, we've already done that.

Well, I was talking about bin-Laden, not American citizens. And I was talking about a manned military operation, not a drone strike. And I was talking about an operation approved directly by the commander-in-chief, not a generic policy laid out in a written directive.

Other than that, I think you might have a point.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Thumpalumpacus's post
16-05-2015, 05:56 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(15-05-2015 10:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 05:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  Shooting an unarmed person with no access to a weapon, and that is now the accusation, is never a legal act unless it's a firing squad

Accusation, not fact.

We will likely never know whether or not he had access to a weapon, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts a weapon was near at hand.

It was a legal kill.

Agree this is based on accusation. I've been responding to the theory, although I absolutely think our political leaders stray from following the rule of law with alarming frequency.

As a secondary point, how you can state this is accusation, agree we don't know exactly what happened, and then state a definitive opinion is hilarious. "I have no actual facts so therefore it must be this". That's certainly going to be the position of the Obama administration, but they aren't really the most credible source.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2015, 06:01 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(16-05-2015 01:11 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 06:35 PM)BnW Wrote:  I'm 100% sure I didn't suggest anything close to that. Your not down to two options of summary execution or letting him go free. And, I'm pretty sure you know that.

As for why anyone would give a fuck, we've spent the last 12 years exporting American values and democracy at the point of a gun. Not being able to live up to our own laws makes us look like a bunch of murderous hypocrites. If you don't think that could have an impact on the Muslim world, you've not been paying attention.

If you think it's only been the last twelve years that we've imposed our values on the Muslim world at gunpoint, it's you who has been blithe.

I'm pretty sure that bin Laden was considered an enemy combatant in a leadership position, meaning that under the executive order -- not law -- the act was legal. Now, if he had tried to surrender, killing him was certainly a violation of the Geneva Convention. But no American law was broken in the operation.

We've been doing it since the end of WWII, but prior to 9-11 it wasn't really an open policy. Maybe that's a moot distinction, though.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
16-05-2015, 06:02 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
In the words of one of my Criminal Justice professors (a prosecuting attorney) 'he needed killin'.

Yeah, I know, this is Texas...but if ever this applied, it's in the situation with Osama bL.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Anjele's post
16-05-2015, 06:25 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
The United States has always, throughout its history, advocated human rights and the rule of law. It kidnapped (according to a quick Google search) 12.5 million people from Africa, including men, women, and children, shipping them to the U.S. in the most horrendous conditions imaginable. 1.8 million died on the voyage and were unceremoniously dumped into the sea. Those that arrived were sold into the most brutal slavery the world had yet seen. It stole land from the indigenous peoples, slaughtering them mercilessly, after signing treaties guaranteeing them said land in perpetuity. After it became a world power, it invaded any country it felt like, installing brutal puppet dictators. In war it never hesitated to target civilian populations whenever it felt there was advantage to be gained by doing so.

And now people who supported all of this right up until President Obama took office are suddenly crying crocodile tears because Obama gave the order for a Seal team to go after the man who by his own assertion masterminded and ordered the terrorist attacks of 9/11 that killed five thousand people.

People who supported George Bush's war against Iraq (a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 and in fact opposed al Qaeda) have no moral standing to criticize Obama for ordering the Seal team to go after bin Laden.

People who were criticizing violations of human rights before Obama do have moral standing to criticize Obama. I count myself among this number, and I am sure that most if not all the posters in this thread can do so likewise. Obama's record to date is dreadful. He's broken most or all of his promises and continued most of the policies of his predecessors, the notable exceptions being women's rights and LGBT rights.

For me, this is not about whether or not Obama violated bin Laden's rights, because Obama has been violating everybody's rights everywhere you look. It's about the obstructionism of extremists who hate Obama so much that they will use any argument, invent any conspiracy, spread any lie, oppose any policy no matter how significant or insignificant, no matter how necessary it may be, just to bring him down, even if the nation and its people, including themselves, have to suffer in the process, as for example when they shut down the government by opposing the debt extension over a health care reform bill that was a carbon copy of the one that Romney himself instituted in his own state when he was governor there. Such people do not give a damn about human rights or the rule of law or even the welfare of their own nation and its citizens. Their hatred for the President is so overpowering that it is all that drives them. Those are the people I accuse of racism, because that level of pure, burning hatred seldom arises out of other causes.

I do not even accuse of racism the conspiracy theorists who have consistently accused all presidents and the government in general of one conspiracy after another. Those people are just nuts. Governments do not need conspiracies to do nasty stuff. They do nasty stuff right out in the open, and when they do try conspiracies (e.g. Watergate) the truth comes out sooner rather than later.

If the killing of bin Laden had happened in a context where former administrations had respected human rights and the rule of law, it would be an issue. As it happens, it is merely one point in a mile-long list, and very near the bottom at that. Especially since we don't actually know how the events unfolded, other than that Obama gave the order for the Seal team to go after him. We just have rantings from people on the far right who have demonstrated that no accusation is too ridiculous to be used against the object of their hatred.

"El mar se mide por olas,
el cielo por alas,
nosotros por lágrimas."
-- Jaime Sabines
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes daniel1948's post
16-05-2015, 08:17 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
I have no idea what the point of the above post was, but the accusations about the narrative on the killing of bin Ladin are not coming from the far right. They are coming from Seymour Hersh and then the New York Times, neither of which can ever be accused of being part of the far right. Or even the just right of center group. It's not coming from a vast right wing conspiracy, but from a Pulitzer prize winning journalist and and partly backed up by a very left of center newspaper.

For anyone interested, here is the article that kicked the whole thing off: The Killing of Osama bin Ladin

This article provides a very detailed overview. The fact that he provides so many specific names and details makes the account, to me, very believable. And, if this account is accurate, it's just about impossible to argue this was a legal killing. Note - I'm not making any judgment on whether or not the bastard should have been killed. Morality of this is a different issue. I'm talking about the legality here.

People who were directly involved with the events leading up to the mission have come out on record and said that Hersh's account is completely wrong and are standing by the original story, holes and all. I'm not going to comment on which version is true because I really don't know. I'll admit that I'm more inclined to believe Hersh than Obama and co. because one has a record of bringing out the truth whereas the other has a record of hiding it and denying it. But, that doesn't mean Hersh is right in this instance. So, I'll just leave it at that.

The point is, I think there is a discussion to be had here. And, again, the discussion is not about what we should have done with OBL. It's about our leadership and the rule of law, and whether or not we as a country expect the rule of law to be followed equally by everyone. And, what do we do about it when it is flaunted. This story is a symptom of a much larger issue, and that issue exists whether Hersh is right or not.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes BnW's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: