Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
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16-05-2015, 09:20 AM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2015 09:23 AM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(16-05-2015 06:01 AM)BnW Wrote:  We've been doing it since the end of WWII, but prior to 9-11 it wasn't really an open policy. Maybe that's a moot distinction, though.

Perhaps not "open" in the sense of American tanks rolling down the streets, but the Iranian population knew immediately in 1953 who was behind Mossadegh's overthrow. And they knew that the Shah was our puppet. They knew that his SAVAK was trained in torture tactics by our CIA. And it was American-built armored cars patrolling the streets of Tehran in the fall of 1978.

I think it certainly is a moot distinction. Americans may not know much about their nation's history of meddling, but the people we've screwed over sure do.
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16-05-2015, 11:37 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
Funny you mention Iran. I could swear I saw something recently about declassified documents from the 50s that confirmed the CIA basically overthrew the elected government and put the Shah in place. We officially denied it for decades but there is now concrete evidence those denials were all full of shit. It's things like that that lead me to assume Hersh is right in his account of what happened and everyone from the administration saying he got it wrong is lying through his teeth.

Another fun story to look at is Benghazi. I think there is a story there but not the one the Republicans were beating their chests over. There is a lot of innuendo that the embassy was involved with things it shouldn't have been doing, including running guns to the Syrians and maybe holding prisoners in the building. I don't believe this "stand down order" narrative but a story where the CIA was running operations from the embassy, and that's what lead to the attack? That story I find believable.

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16-05-2015, 11:50 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
Yeah, I lived in Iran for four years in the 70s. I've seen, first-hand, the anger that our government's misguided policies arouses in the people of the other nations; the Revolution that overthrew the Shah and installed the mullahs chased my family out in December 1978. And that Revolution was a direct consequence of our meddling in 1953, and continued support of a vicious autocrat in the ensuing 25 years.

As for Benghazi or Syria, I know little. I'm unsure whether an offensive movie set off the violence, but given the Muslim overreactions to cartoons, it seems plausible. But mine is hardly an informed opinion in that matter.
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16-05-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(16-05-2015 05:56 AM)BnW Wrote:  
(15-05-2015 10:13 PM)Chas Wrote:  Accusation, not fact.

We will likely never know whether or not he had access to a weapon, but I would bet dollars to doughnuts a weapon was near at hand.

It was a legal kill.

Agree this is based on accusation. I've been responding to the theory, although I absolutely think our political leaders stray from following the rule of law with alarming frequency.

As a secondary point, how you can state this is accusation, agree we don't know exactly what happened, and then state a definitive opinion is hilarious. "I have no actual facts so therefore it must be this". That's certainly going to be the position of the Obama administration, but they aren't really the most credible source.

No, it doesn't matter whether those accusations are true or not - it was still a legal kill. They went in to kill an enemy combatant.

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16-05-2015, 02:01 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
I think the movie theory has been completely debunked at this point.

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16-05-2015, 06:02 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(16-05-2015 02:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-05-2015 05:56 AM)BnW Wrote:  Agree this is based on accusation. I've been responding to the theory, although I absolutely think our political leaders stray from following the rule of law with alarming frequency.

As a secondary point, how you can state this is accusation, agree we don't know exactly what happened, and then state a definitive opinion is hilarious. "I have no actual facts so therefore it must be this". That's certainly going to be the position of the Obama administration, but they aren't really the most credible source.

No, it doesn't matter whether those accusations are true or not - it was still a legal kill. They went in to kill an enemy combatant.

Sorry, but if the Hersh account was accurate, he was not an enemy combatant when killed. He would not meet the legal definition. That is the reason the administration is upset by that story. Hersh is calling them murderers as well as liars. Liars is almost a given but murderers is a problem for them.

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17-05-2015, 01:27 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(16-05-2015 06:02 PM)BnW Wrote:  Sorry, but if the Hersh account was accurate, he was not an enemy combatant when killed. He would not meet the legal definition. That is the reason the administration is upset by that story. Hersh is calling them murderers as well as liars. Liars is almost a given but murderers is a problem for them.

Reading that article, I'm glad that our country has those sorts of sonsabitches working for us. The world ain't a garden stroll and as you yourself have noted already, legality and morality aren't always consonant.

In this case, pulling the trigger on that bastard was a good call, in my opinion. The fucker deserved to be shot in the face ... and that's coming from someone generally opposed to the death penalty.
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17-05-2015, 09:56 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
I think what he deserved is a different discussion than what we did. If you want to get into what he deserved, he got off too easy and didn't suffer enough. That's how it goes though.

In terms of what we did, it seriously hurts our credibility in the world when we do things like Hersh claims. Take a different example: Iraq. We rolled into Iraq on trumped up charges that we knew were BS. We hung people after WWII for starting aggressive wars. But, then we go do it ourselves. So, how do we now stop Putin in Ukraine? For that matter, how do we oppose Isis? Sure, we haven't beheaded people, but we routinely kill people in that region.

How we act in the world directly impacts our authority. Right now, we have none.

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17-05-2015, 11:00 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(16-05-2015 08:17 AM)BnW Wrote:  This article provides a very detailed overview. The fact that he provides so many specific names and details makes the account, to me, very believable. And, if this account is accurate, it's just about impossible to argue this was a legal killing. Note - I'm not making any judgment on whether or not the bastard should have been killed. Morality of this is a different issue. I'm talking about the legality here.

What about the latest killing of ISIS' CFO? Dude wasn't a fighter, he was too important for that. His job was to keep ISIS financed. Was his killing "legal"? Note that I am not asking if it was "justified" but was it "legal"?

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17-05-2015, 11:42 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
Early news reports are he was killed in a shootout with US special forces. Assuming the mission is legal (and I'll assume it is), then fuck him. You shoot at people, they shoot back, bad things can happen to you. So, per the news reports, I'd say that was clean.

My guess is we would have preferred to take him alive. This was not an assassination most likely. That's a key difference.

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