Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
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17-05-2015, 11:49 AM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
Btw, I'm not an authority on either military or international law. The bin Ladin fact pattern that Hersh is claiming is easy to judge because he's claiming it was an assassination, period. Most of the time It's not that blatant. Legality of battlefield kills is a tough business. Absent specific evidence, a soldier carrying out lawful orders will always get the benefit of the doubt.

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17-05-2015, 03:33 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(16-05-2015 06:02 PM)BnW Wrote:  
(16-05-2015 02:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, it doesn't matter whether those accusations are true or not - it was still a legal kill. They went in to kill an enemy combatant.

Sorry, but if the Hersh account was accurate, he was not an enemy combatant when killed. He would not meet the legal definition. That is the reason the administration is upset by that story. Hersh is calling them murderers as well as liars. Liars is almost a given but murderers is a problem for them.

Please provide the definition you are referring to. He looked like an enemy combatant to me and to the U.S. government.

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17-05-2015, 04:17 PM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2015 04:22 PM by Thumpalumpacus.)
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(17-05-2015 09:56 AM)BnW Wrote:  In terms of what we did, it seriously hurts our credibility in the world when we do things like Hersh claims. Take a different example: Iraq. We rolled into Iraq on trumped up charges that we knew were BS. We hung people after WWII for starting aggressive wars. But, then we go do it ourselves. So, how do we now stop Putin in Ukraine? For that matter, how do we oppose Isis? Sure, we haven't beheaded people, but we routinely kill people in that region.

How we act in the world directly impacts our authority. Right now, we have none.

I disagree, in the sense that killing bin-Laden is not comparable to invading Iraq, either morally, or in the eyes of the neutral world.

Viewed morally, targeting one person who has admitted to masterminding 3,000 murders is much more defensible than targeting an entire civilian population whose only "crime" was being born in a land run by a guy who would no longer do our bidding.

In the eyes of the neutral world, killing ObL was setting things right. Indeed, very few nations complained of the act, despite the nearly-immediate knowledge that he wasn't armed at the time of his killing. I think most folks understand that when you buy the boat, you get the leaks, and therefore the uproar among non-partisans the world over was absent.

You're absolutely right that with our Iraq invasion, we ourselves cut out the high ground from under our own feet. While legally, those actions might both be congruent, morally, the difference is clear. Killing one man who has admitting murdering 3,000 is justified; killing 250,000 (or more) who have done nothing to us is heinous.

The latter cost us our credibility the world over. The former demonstrated to other potential planners that they aren't immune. The real world runs on Realpolitik, and at the end of the day, as Clausewitz noted even as Bismarck moved, war is an extension of politics. Not killing ObL would have been interpreted as a sign of weakness,especially in that part of the world.
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17-05-2015, 05:08 PM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2015 05:31 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(17-05-2015 11:42 AM)BnW Wrote:  Early news reports are he was killed in a shootout with US special forces. Assuming the mission is legal (and I'll assume it is), then fuck him. You shoot at people, they shoot back, bad things can happen to you. So, per the news reports, I'd say that was clean.

My guess is we would have preferred to take him alive. This was not an assassination most likely. That's a key difference.

CFO had no additional intel to give we didn't already have. His was more likely an assassination than OBL where you gotta worry about martyrdom and shit. Burial at sea was the best we could do to prevent martyrdom. Nobody blows themselves up over the accountant.

From all accounts the team that took out OBL also encountered enemy fire during that operation. They even lost one of their copters. If that mission was legal I don't understand your distinction. If that mission wasn't legal I don't understand your distinction.

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17-05-2015, 06:39 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
Read the article I posted. The claim is they didn't take fire, no one shot at them, and it was an execution. Hersh is claiming the official story is a lie made up after the fact. That's the distinction.

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17-05-2015, 06:48 PM (This post was last modified: 17-05-2015 06:52 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
(17-05-2015 06:39 PM)BnW Wrote:  Read the article I posted. The claim is they didn't take fire, no one shot at them, and it was an execution. Hersh is claiming the official story is a lie made up after the fact. That's the distinction.

If they didn't encounter fire then how come they went in with two choppers and left with one? Left a perfectly good military helicopter behind for the enemy to use so they had a cover story in case some conspiracy theory comes up years later?

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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17-05-2015, 09:59 PM
RE: Osama, Obama, and the Pesky Fifth Amedment
The one chopper crashed. But, the story had NEVER been it was shot down or damaged in the shooting. No one is making that claim.

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