Out of the Abundance of the Heart...
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23-05-2012, 11:44 AM
 
RE: Out of the Abundance of the Heart...
(23-05-2012 10:40 AM)kineo Wrote:  I watched this YouTube video of one of his lectures, and loved it. I'd heard of the slit experiment before- but never heard it explained so well. It's fantastic. Smile


I am quite interested in this. I'll watch it later. Thanks.



By the way, speaking of books: I finished my review of "The Shack." This is the book that completely turned me off of religion, including my own religion. I don't think that was the author's intent, but that's its effect. You can read my review of it at my website and see my video review of it as well.
http://www.thenovelreport.com/BSPbookreviews.html
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23-05-2012, 12:02 PM
RE: Out of the Abundance of the Heart...
Now you're dangerously close to statements that can easily be construed as intentionally dishonest, Egor. I thought you were trying to get away from that?

Let's address each of your points one by one:
1) You see, that right there is a religious statement. That is, it's an attempt to control the thought processes of another person for the purposes of a cause you think to be morally superior.

I honestly don't even know what you're talking about here, so perhaps we should start by having you tell us what you think religion and "religious statement" means, because it appears to something quite different than the typical dictionary definitions e.g.

a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion>b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2): commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2
: a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3
archaic : scrupulous conformity : conscientiousness
4
: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faithAtheism, by definition, is not a religion. It is really just a stance on a single topic (e.g. the belief that a god exists). Therefore, when you assert that it is a religion you are demonstrating a clear misconception. And unless you're into misconception, it would probably be wise to work through that and get a conception that's more aligned with reality.

2) But you just said you don't have any answers for the most basic features of physical reality.
You can't be serious, Egor. I thought we were past all that? I didn't say that I don't have any answers. I said that I get my answers via the study of scientific literature that contains empirical data (e.g. facts) and established theories that explain those facts.


This seems like almost intentional dishonesty (e.g. misquoting or putting words in someone's mouth) which typically doesn't have legs on internet forums where you can just read the entire discussion thread. Are you somehow suggesting that the facts that have been gathered via the scientific method of inquiry don't qualify as answers to your question?


3) Sounds to me like you're just content to be ignorant. Again, religion. As for Sagan's book, I don't feel compelled to read it. Thanks. See, that's another thing religious people do--they always try to force on you some book they follow.
Let me make sure I understand what you're saying...I'm content to be ignorant because I choose to focus on objective, empirical facts instead of the subjective opinions and ideas for which you and I (and nobody else) has zero supporting evidence?

As for your last comment, that's by far the most infuriating and sad one because I take it as a direct lack of respect on your part. I mentioned the book to you originally because you were freakin' asking for book suggestions for your website. Moreover, I'm not forcing you to do anything. I simply asked you if you checked it out.

My old self would have simply stated flat out that you're acting a like a total douchebag and be done with it, but I'm working hard to move away from that pattern of behavior because I don't think it's productive when compared to more compassionate approaches.

Therefore, I instead spent a few moments reflecting on the psychological factors that might have elicited these responses from you. My best guess is some sort of sense of defensiveness or frustration. What I don't know is what aspect of my post(s) elicited that response in you.

It definitely seems like something has struck a nerve because I'm frankly shocked that you would assert such tired and clearly, demonstrably false assertions (e.g. "atheism is a religion" and the rest of that more personally directed nonsense I outlined above).

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23-05-2012, 05:16 PM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2012 05:45 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Out of the Abundance of the Heart...
(23-05-2012 11:42 AM)Egor Wrote:  Sounds to me like you're just content to be ignorant.

Ah fuck. Apparently there's still some dangling dingleberries left from the old asshole Egor. Might need to get some scissors or something to eliminate them completely. If that don't work a hemorrhoidectomy should be investigated. Wink

(23-05-2012 01:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(22-05-2012 05:32 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  So you went and made your own personal Jesus. Me too! It's the only way I could reject the bullshit while still holding onto the word. But I didn't need to turn it into a religion. Just needed to admit the Golden Rule as the only rule. Smile

I here you.

Are you an atheist, then?

I consider myself areligious. The whole theism bit is just a red herring designed to distract from the only metaphysical issue which seems pressing to me. When introduced to a new religion or sect (or anyone selling metaphysical wares for that matter) my first question is, "Is what you're selling based on some bullshit promise of a postmortem preservation of identity? If so, then please provide a plausible mechanism of action. Any plausible mechanism of action will do." The Internet Mullah actually did me the courtesy of answering this in his "Ask a Muslim" thread and I've been remiss in not responding yet. But suffice to say I don't find his explanation plausible except in the sense of eternal recurrence. Which from a pragmatic perspective is really no different than "Peace. I'm outta here." Whether I live this moment only once, or am damned to experience this same moment over and over again, my response is the same. Better pick it clean and then suck the marrow out of it.

But in casual conversation, when I don't feel it's worth engaging in metaphysical discourse with some derp, I use the label "atheist" 'cause they understand that without further elaboration. Last time I used the term "areligious" on a TRT forum I used to be active on, the Doc who ran it responded with "A religious what?" [Image: a57910b0ce28.gif]

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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23-05-2012, 11:12 PM
 
RE: Out of the Abundance of the Heart...
(23-05-2012 12:02 PM)lightninlives Wrote:  Now you're dangerously close to statements that can easily be construed as intentionally dishonest, Egor. I thought you were trying to get away from that?

No, no. I'm still lying my ass off. I'm just trying to do it with a smile instead of a side kick.

Quote:I honestly don't even know what you're talking about here, so perhaps we should start by having you tell us what you think religion and "religious statement" means, because it appears to something quite different than the typical dictionary definitions e.g.

I think religion is this: your personal set of beliefs that you cannot prove to be correct. Here are mine:

God is the monistic fundamental consciousness.

We are not just the person we are in this life but the totality of persons we have been in all our lives.

We live this life to learn lessons we will use to govern our lucid spiritual plane after we die.

If we muck it up, we reincarnate to learn more lessons.

If we get it right, we continue to evolve until we cease to exist in the unity of God--whose substance, after all, we are made from.


Quote:Let me make sure I understand what you're saying...I'm content to be ignorant because I choose to focus on objective, empirical facts instead of the subjective opinions and ideas for which you and I (and nobody else) has zero supporting evidence?

I suppose that all depends on what you will consider to be evidence, doesn't it?

Quote:As for your last comment, that's by far the most infuriating and sad

I really wouldn't invest that much emotional stock in it if I were you. Weeping

See, now I'm willingly becoming an asshole again: I blame you. Dodgy


Quote:My old self would have simply stated flat out that you're acting a like a total douchebag and be done with it,

Oh yeah, but you're way above all that now. Thumbsup


Quote:because I don't think it's productive when compared to more compassionate approaches.

Well, I for one am really feeling the love from you these days. Unsure

Quote:Therefore, I instead spent a few moments reflecting on the psychological factors that might have elicited these responses from you. My best guess is some sort of sense of defensiveness or frustration. What I don't know is what aspect of my post(s) elicited that response in you.

Let's see if I can find a video that explains it. Here's one that does it perfectly:





Really. I'm an asshole. I'm just trying to use a lot of restraint. Sometimes it just doesn't stick. But something tells me you completely understand...what with all your compassion and not deleting, I mean not calling me a douchebag. Drinking Beverage
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23-05-2012, 11:22 PM
 
RE: Out of the Abundance of the Heart...
(23-05-2012 05:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Ah fuck. Apparently there's still some dangling dingleberries left from the old asshole Egor. Might need to get some scissors or something to eliminate them completely. If that don't work a hemorrhoidectomy should be investigated. Wink

Yeah, I'm the best guy in the world so long as I'm turning atheist. Laughat

Quote:I consider myself areligious. The whole theism bit is just a red herring designed to distract from the only metaphysical issue which seems pressing to me. When introduced to a new religion or sect (or anyone selling metaphysical wares for that matter) my first question is, "Is what you're selling based on some bullshit promise of a postmortem preservation of identity? If so, then please provide a plausible mechanism of action. Any plausible mechanism of action will do." The Internet Mullah actually did me the courtesy of answering this in his "Ask a Muslim" thread and I've been remiss in not responding yet. But suffice to say I don't find his explanation plausible except in the sense of eternal recurrence. Which from a pragmatic perspective is really no different than "Peace. I'm outta here." Whether I live this moment only once, or am damned to experience this same moment over and over again, my response is the same. Better pick it clean and then suck the marrow out of it.

It's not that I can explain a mechanism of action, it's that I can't see how death causes extinction.

Quote:But in casual conversation, when I don't feel it's worth engaging in metaphysical discourse with some derp, I use the label "atheist" 'cause they understand that without further elaboration. Last time I used the term "areligious" on a TRT forum I used to be active on, the Doc who ran it responded with "A religious what?" [Image: a57910b0ce28.gif]

Fair enough.
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24-05-2012, 06:54 AM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2012 07:16 AM by lightninlives.)
RE: Out of the Abundance of the Heart...
(23-05-2012 11:12 PM)Egor Wrote:  I think religion is this: your personal set of beliefs that you cannot prove to be correct. Here are mine:

God is the monistic fundamental consciousness.

We are not just the person we are in this life but the totality of persons we have been in all our lives.

We live this life to learn lessons we will use to govern our lucid spiritual plane after we die.

If we muck it up, we reincarnate to learn more lessons.

If we get it right, we continue to evolve until we cease to exist in the unity of God--whose substance, after all, we are made from.
Cool. Thanks for your personal definition. It's worth pointing out that this is not anywhere near the common (or even less common) definitions for the word "religion." It sounds a lot more like what many people seem to define as "spirituality."

Moreover, by this definition, pretty much anything anyone thinks about anything that has not been verified via empirical evidence (since there no such thing as 100% proof) qualifies as religious thought. Sounds like you may need to go back to the drawing board and think through this a bit more since what you're defining as religion and/or religious doctrine is a far cry from what the world's major religions demonstrate in real life.

Let's also walk through your reincarnation scenario (more specifically "the totality of persons we have been in all our lives"). If we take that to its extreme, it's possible that all of us will be every person (and animal and plant and virus) that has ever and will ever exist. Kind of like the ultimate "Grand Theft Auto" video game. And hey, while we're at it, let us also assume that we will all be all of the identities in that spiritual plane you describe. But why stop there? Let's take it to the next logical level, which is that all of these entities that have ever existed on this plane as well as any identities in that lucid spiritual plane you describe are all illusory (after all, how could they not be if we all get to experience them like a character in a video game). All we are left with is fundamental reality. Oneness. Singularity. Brahman.

Cool story. The essence of Hinduism in a nutshell. But there's just one problem. Not a shred of evidence supporting any of it.

FYI - Even though I don't believe in what you described or in what I described above (which was told to me by a Hindu holy man) the one major difference between your story and the story above (as well as the story of buddhism) is the necessary step that must be taken in terms of dropping the illusion that "you" Egor will exist forever.

But based on some of your other responses. You're not ready to let yourself go. It's all good, though. That could take years or maybe even never happen. Totally up to you.

(23-05-2012 11:12 PM)Egor Wrote:  I suppose that all depends on what you will consider to be evidence, doesn't it?
Not what I consider to be evidence, Egor. What many hundreds of thousands of people have worked a lifetime to consider, test, and attempt to falsify in an effort to separate facts from fantasy and conjecture. What allowed Kepler to give up on the idea that the Earth was the center of the solar system and that the planets followed circular orbits, despite the fact that his religious beliefs and all of his peers were sure that there fantasies and conjecture were "evidence."

(23-05-2012 11:12 PM)Egor Wrote:  I really wouldn't invest that much emotional stock in it if I were you. Weeping
If I didn't have a lot of emotional stock invested, I wouldn't spend time on an atheist forum, publish an atheist blog, publish a skeptic blog, produce atheist/skeptic videos, etc. I'm angered and simultaneously saddened not just because you behave this way, but because I know that millions of other fellow humans do the same and for likely some of the same reasons (defending their personal fairy tales). It divides families, causes wars and strife, and hinders the scientific progress that will eventually lead to the curing of most if not all of the diseases and ailments that cause great suffering.

So yeah, I think I'll continue to be fully invested.

(23-05-2012 11:12 PM)Egor Wrote:  See, now I'm willingly becoming an asshole again: I blame you. Dodgy

(23-05-2012 11:12 PM)Egor Wrote:  Oh yeah, but you're way above all that now. Thumbsup
Kind of hard to make the point without mentioning my old ways. Again, as I stated, my old self would have called you a name and been done with it.

(23-05-2012 11:12 PM)Egor Wrote:  Well, I for one am really feeling the love from you these days. Unsure
Funny, since I seem to remember you mentioning how you appreciated some of my words of support and encouragement not more than a few days ago. Funny how selective memory works.

(23-05-2012 11:12 PM)Egor Wrote:  Really. I'm an asshole. I'm just trying to use a lot of restraint. Sometimes it just doesn't stick. But something tells me you completely understand...what with all your compassion and not deleting, I mean not calling me a douchebag. Drinking Beverage
See my commentary above. You're not an asshole. You've just been conditioned by your religious doctrine of your youth to believe that you were born that way. I've never met a newborn baby that's an asshole.

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24-05-2012, 06:59 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2012 07:15 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Out of the Abundance of the Heart...
.....

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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24-05-2012, 07:06 PM (This post was last modified: 24-05-2012 08:02 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Out of the Abundance of the Heart...
(23-05-2012 11:12 PM)Egor Wrote:  I think religion is this: your personal set of beliefs that you cannot prove to be correct. Here are mine:

God is the monistic fundamental consciousness.

We are not just the person we are in this life but the totality of persons we have been in all our lives.
We live this life to learn lessons we will use to govern our lucid spiritual plane after we die.
If we muck it up, we reincarnate to learn more lessons.
If we get it right, we continue to evolve until we cease to exist in the unity of God--whose substance, after all, we are made from.

You Buddhist, Egor.

(23-05-2012 11:12 PM)Egor Wrote:  Really. I'm an asshole. I'm just trying to use a lot of restraint.

Yes Egor, I understand. We're all assholes. The longer I try my best not to act like an asshole or prick the less restraint I require.

(23-05-2012 05:16 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(23-05-2012 11:42 AM)Egor Wrote:  Sounds to me like you're just content to be ignorant.

Ah fuck. Apparently there's still some dangling dingleberries left from the old asshole Egor. Might need to get some scissors or something to eliminate them completely. If that don't work a hemorrhoidectomy should be investigated. Wink

(23-05-2012 11:22 PM)Egor Wrote:  Yeah, I'm the best guy in the world so long as I'm turning atheist. Laughat

I couldn't give less of a shit about your metaphysics, brother, still working it out for myself, don't need no help yet, but if you don't recognize that statement towards lightninlives as an ad hominem insult, you still got some dingleberries left.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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