Out of the mouths of infants . . .
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-03-2013, 06:10 AM
Out of the mouths of infants . . .
Hi
This is the first time I've posted on this forum, so it's an introduction also. Hi everyone Big Grin
This is a condensed story of how I've come to reject christianity. I'll try not to ramble too much. I haven't even had 'the discussion' with my husband yet.

I became a 'born-again christian' at 18yrs old after a friend introduced me to a youth group at a local church. I really believed I could see 'god working' through these people and that was evidence enough for me. I believed the bible as god's word, my sins were forgiven through jesus' crucifiction, god was with me & he was answering prayers. I thought god had changed my life. I read the bible and believed I had 'the truth'. Usual christian stuff - if you've ever classified yourself as a christian, you'll kinda know where I was at!
I went to university at 19 to read law, and became vice president of the christian union there. I took part in all the debates with 'non-believers' about morality, natural law, justice and epistamology etc. Christians seemed to 'win' the debates a lot, and I suppose being around these super-clever people who were also christians just confirmed to me that I must be 'right' also.
A few years after university, I met my future husband. He wasn't a christian, although he said he believed that god might be 'out there somewhere'. It wasn't long before he 'gave his life to jesus' after coming to church with me a few times.
We've been together 16 years and have 2 kids. Up til the end of 2012, we all attended a fundamentalist, megachurch regularly (unfortunately, we have these in the UK as well.)
I've always been one to question things, more so as I've got older. My kids are both quite clever - my son in particular likes David Attenborough & Brian Cox type stuff. He's a little 'expert' on dinosaurs. However, the structure of this megachurch meant it was impossible to question or debate anything. We had a CEO type senior pastor, unfortunately not an educated man. He uses the honorary titles Rt Rev Dr before his name, altough he finished school at 16, and by his own admission, only learned to read & write as an adult ( taught by god, he says.) In sermons from the pulpit, we'd hear interjections of psuedoscience about DNA, archaeology etc, in an attempt to validate the other nonsense being preached. None of it based in REAL science. My son (aged10) would roll his eyes at me ... "Even I know that's not right, Mom." Adults would be clapping and cheering, and my kids were getting more miserable.
In Sunday school, my son was ridiculed for asking where dinosaurs fitted in to god's creation (Story of Job, he was told.) When he pointed out that no human fossils have been found with dinosaur fossils, the flustered teacher moved on quickly. "Some things are just understood by faith", she said. My daughter asked them "Did Noah go to the Arctic, collect two polar bears, put them in the ark, and somehow, they got back there after the flood waters went down?" Definitely yes, god can do anything, anything is possible with god. "Our church is huge; why are there no scientists at church?" my kids would ask. I couldn't answer that.
And, I suppose, that was the beginning of the beginning of really looking at what and why I've believed what Ive dedicated myself to for over 20 yrs. My real issue was not with the concept of god itself. God cannot be 'proved' or 'disproved' using reason alone. A non-argument. My issue was that this god of the bible has made claims to have 'broken into' the earth's natural history, and into events with real people in real time, such as with Noah. Not just in parables or pictures, but with REAL people on THIS earth, otherwise the geneology of Jesus Christ in Luke's gospel is a meaningless parable also. (Jesus is supposedly traced back to Adam, via Noah, in 77 generations.) To put it crudely, if we start digging, science should confirm these 'god with mankind' events, and the churches would be full of archaeologists, paleontologists and anthropologists etc eager to share their findings with us. I couldn't find ANYTHING. No s**t, Sherlock.

Using reason & logic, I have to reject the story of Noah as a truth.
If I reject Noah's ark as a truth, I cannot accept the geneology of Jesus Christ as a truth. According to Luke's gospel, both men are DIRECTLY linked via REAL people.
IF I reject the geneology of Jesus Christ, then I cannot accept any other historical record (in the bible) about Jesus. I cannot be sure who he was, because the historical 'records'' are not be based on FACTUAL information.
I have NO factual information to base this faith on.
Therefore, the christian faith is not based on truth. You can't have some 'truths' and some 'non-truths'. If there are 'non-truths', then the whole hypothesis must be rejected.
I don't want to base my life on 'non-truths'.
Therefore, I am not a christian anymore.

I don't miss it.
I've just stopped going to church.
No-one at church misses me or the children. My husband still goes, and I'm thinking very carefully about 'the talk' we've not had yet. He's a sensitive chap, and I know I need to go about it in the right way. As I said, it's one of those fundamentalist places, so I'm confident they'll tell him I've been listening to demons and/ or I'm trying to understand things with reason and not with faith etc. Usual crap.

I'm so glad I've got two children who are interested in the world around them, and who were prepared to ask what, how and why. 'Out of the mouths of infants . . . .'
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like goodbyebinarybrain's post
25-03-2013, 08:35 AM
RE: Out of the mouths of infants . . .
Don't confuse faith or a belief with reality. A faith is only a faith, don't look for factual verification. A religion would not last 2000 yrs. and become the largest in history without the miracles, and a belief in the supernatural. Welcome to the real world. Remember, there are facts and faith and never the two shall mix ....except in religion, as a necessity.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-03-2013, 09:15 AM
RE: Out of the mouths of infants . . .
(25-03-2013 06:10 AM)goodbyebinarybrain Wrote:  Using reason & logic, I have to reject the story of Noah as a truth.
If I reject Noah's ark as a truth, I cannot accept the geneology of Jesus Christ as a truth. According to Luke's gospel, both men are DIRECTLY linked via REAL people.
IF I reject the geneology of Jesus Christ, then I cannot accept any other historical record (in the bible) about Jesus. I cannot be sure who he was, because the historical 'records'' are not be based on FACTUAL information.
I have NO factual information to base this faith on.
Therefore, the christian faith is not based on truth. You can't have some 'truths' and some 'non-truths'. If there are 'non-truths', then the whole hypothesis must be rejected.
I don't want to base my life on 'non-truths'.
Therefore, I am not a christian anymore.
You are right about one thing; if you reject the story of Noah's ark then to be consistent you must reject the truth of Christianity. There is one more point to consider; Jesus himself spoke of Noah as being a historical person. If Noah isn't real then Jesus was wrong and therefore can't be the son of God as he claimed to be. You are more consistent than Christians who claim to believe Jesus and yet reject the idea that the flood really happened.

But what if your premise is wrong and the story of Noah is true? The fact that so many different cultures have legends of a worldwide flood is an indication that such an event really took place. And the reason many scientists haven't found evidence of the flood is that they believe such a flood is impossible and they interpret the evidence they do find to conform to what they already believe. In fact there is evidence supporting the truth of the story of Noah. You can find some of it here:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n2

God's invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

blog
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
29-03-2013, 12:10 PM
RE: Out of the mouths of infants . . .
(25-03-2013 09:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Jesus himself spoke of Noah as being a historical person.
Where? The word 'Noah' does not appear in the New Testament.

(25-03-2013 09:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The fact that so many different cultures have legends of a worldwide flood is an indication that such an event really took place.
Emerging civilizations were established in river valleys: the Nile, the Tigris, the Euphrates, the Yalu. In America there was even a Mississippian culture. Such rivers occasionally have great floods: 100 year floods, 500 year floods, 1000 year floods. Inevitably such a flood would devastate the civilization and they would likely assume that the flood was world wide. Thus it is not surprising that different cultures have legends of a flood.

The Biblical flood is impossible. The Bible says that the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. Assuming this means the two similarly named mountains in modern day Turkey, of which the smaller is about a mile high, then the water must have been a mile deep measured against modern day sea level. Where did all that water go? It certainly did not run off into the sea as happens with modern day floods. Nor could it have evaporated since the atmosphere would have become saturated long before any appreciable lowering of the water level. The water would have fallen back as rain.

Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice Is also great
And would suffice. -- Robert Frost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like f stop's post
29-03-2013, 01:38 PM
RE: Out of the mouths of infants . . .
Hi Goodbyebinarybrain - "Even I know that's not right, Mom." - sounds like you got a smart kid(s). I'm willing to bet they both probably take after you. Thumbsup

This Personal Issues and Support section of the forum might be an informative read before you have a talk with your man... a lot of people have been in your situation and feedback is always helpful. And of course, there is always someone here to listen. For some, this is one of the few places members can let their view be heard; for many different reasons, some are still closeted.

This is an international forum with members from all over the world. I'm sure you'll find something of interest here, GBrain. Hang out for a while, explore, and maybe have a few laughs.

Smile Welcome to the forum.

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-04-2013, 10:40 AM
RE: Out of the mouths of infants . . .
(29-03-2013 12:10 PM)f stop Wrote:  
(25-03-2013 09:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Jesus himself spoke of Noah as being a historical person.
Where? The word 'Noah' does not appear in the New Testament.

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
(Matthew 24:37-39 ESV)

Quote:The Biblical flood is impossible. The Bible says that the ark came to rest on the mountains of Ararat. Assuming this means the two similarly named mountains in modern day Turkey, of which the smaller is about a mile high, then the water must have been a mile deep measured against modern day sea level. Where did all that water go?

There is an entry in my blog that answers that question.

http://clydeherrin.wordpress.com/2012/01...-water-go/

God's invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

blog
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-04-2013, 01:47 PM
RE: Out of the mouths of infants . . .
F-hole, you don't want to mess with Theophilus, kid. He's not your run-of-the-mill Bible Nut.


And welcome/goodbye, Brain.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-04-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Out of the mouths of infants . . .
Stick with us here in the real world, Brain. As if I need to tell you, disregard all comments made by religious people; there's more in here than I'd thought there'd be. Luv your story, & good luck w/ your fella.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-04-2013, 02:59 PM
RE: Out of the mouths of infants . . .
(25-03-2013 09:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  The fact that so many different cultures have legends of a worldwide flood is an indication that such an event really took place.

No.

Every person alive has stories and legends and even personal eyewitness evidence that rain falls from the sky. Does that mean that there has ever been a "worldwide" rainstorm? In our lifetime? No. We all have seen rain, we've all read stories and heard people talk about rain, every person in the world has experienced rain, but none of us have ever seen a "worldwide" rainstorm.

It is very possible for multiple cultures, each with their own local flood problems, to have stories and mythology that involves those local floods, even without ever having a "worldwide" flood - just like it's possible for every human to experience rain without us all having to experience it at exactly the same time.

(25-03-2013 09:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  And the reason many scientists haven't found evidence of the flood is that they believe such a flood is impossible and they interpret the evidence they do find to conform to what they already believe.

Maybe this happens a little.

No more often, and I daresay, actually a whole lot less often, than religious people look at something they call evidence and interpret it according to what they already believe.

Scientists (if they are any good at all) see something and then formulate hypotheses about how that works, then they test their hypotheses and discard the ones that fail the test, then they submit their findings to countless other scientists, secular and theological alike, who all try to tear down those initial findings and disprove them. The only things then believed by these scientists are the ones that cannot be torn down by their collective efforts.

That process is infinitely better than seeing something, then reading an ancient mythology book to find an explanation, then ignoring everything else that doesn't fit what the book says.

(25-03-2013 09:15 AM)theophilus Wrote:  In fact there is evidence supporting the truth of the story of Noah. You can find some of it here:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n2

Answers in Genesis is the last place you should ever go to find actual science. It's all presuppositional confirmation bias and junk science, no testing, no peer review, just junk. They call it science, but it's not. If you shit on a bun and tell me it's a burger, well, it's still just shit, and so is Answers in Genesis.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-04-2013, 07:09 PM
RE: Out of the mouths of infants . . .
(04-04-2013 10:40 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(29-03-2013 12:10 PM)f stop Wrote:  Where? The word 'Noah' does not appear in the New Testament.

For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they were unaware until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.
(Matthew 24:37-39 ESV)
Ok. The King James Version says "Noe", which is why my search function missed it. So Noe is Noah?

Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice Is also great
And would suffice. -- Robert Frost
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: