Outside of Space and Time
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03-05-2012, 08:52 PM
Outside of Space and Time
What exists outside of space and time? Is it possible to be "located" within an area devoid of locations? How does cause and effect work outside of time?

I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. We can guess, but that's the best we can do. Nobody has ever observed a world without space or without time, so we don't have observational evidence. Any scientific test we run will be within both space and time, so there's no way to separate those variables and figure out what would happen without them. We'll just never be sure what a lack of space and time entails.

This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there. They didn't get this revelation from the bible because it not only doesn't use the phrase "outside of space and time", but it doesn't even suggest that this is true of God. Nor should we expect it to... Einstein figured out that space and time were not constants, and the world of human knowledge had a mistaken view of them for its entirety until Einstein developed his theory. The book of Genesis doesn't have an account of the creation of time because the writers of the book didn't realize that it needed a creation account, but we know now that the concept of "days" is not fixed and required the creation of time before Day 1 of creation. This is why God is now seen as necessarily existing outside of space and time, although there's no reason to posit a plane that lacks space or time simply because it's necessary to explain God... this plane likely doesn't exist, and God is vacationing there in mutual non-existence.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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03-05-2012, 09:07 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
before there is movement
there must be space in which to move
before something
there is nothing
but you know i love my gwynnies

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03-05-2012, 09:18 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
I heard of another variation that he is not bounded by reality, but still bounded by logic. He can still create a rock so big he can't lift it, but he chooses not too -_-

It starts with:
1) Show me physical evidence of the Lord.
2) God is outside space and time
3) Then show me any influence of the Lord on the physical realm, otherwise he is obsolete.
4) God influences us not through the physical world, but through our spiritual self, our consciousness. Introspection will allow you to find him. Science is limited only to the physical world.
5) ...

I'm always stuck here. Any hints?

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03-05-2012, 09:28 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-05-2012 09:18 PM)robotworld Wrote:  I heard of another variation that he is not bounded by reality, but still bounded by logic. He can still create a rock so big he can't lift it, but he chooses not too -_-

It starts with:
1) Show me physical evidence of the Lord.
2) God is outside space and time
3) Then show me any influence of the Lord on the physical realm, otherwise he is obsolete.
4) God influences us not through the physical world, but through our spiritual self, our consciousness. Introspection will allow you to find him. Science is limited only to the physical world.
5) ...

I'm always stuck here. Any hints?


2) God is outside space and time.

Name one property/quality of "existence" that does not require/procede in time.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein (That's a JOKE, ya idiot)
"And you quit footing the bill for these nations that are oil rich - we're paying for some of their *squirmishes* that have been going on for centuries" - Sarah Palin
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03-05-2012, 09:52 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-05-2012 09:28 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-05-2012 09:18 PM)robotworld Wrote:  I heard of another variation that he is not bounded by reality, but still bounded by logic. He can still create a rock so big he can't lift it, but he chooses not too -_-

It starts with:
1) Show me physical evidence of the Lord.
2) God is outside space and time
3) Then show me any influence of the Lord on the physical realm, otherwise he is obsolete.
4) God influences us not through the physical world, but through our spiritual self, our consciousness. Introspection will allow you to find him. Science is limited only to the physical world.
5) ...

I'm always stuck here. Any hints?


2) God is outside space and time.

Name one property/quality of "existence" that does not require/procede in time.
Nothing as far as I know. Even a zero-dimensional object, a single point, is still influenced by the flow of time itself. Not to say objects with more dimensions. Theists usually say God exists out of time. So either God cannot perceive time, or that his perception of time is so warped that 1 billion years seems like a single second to him, which means that there is no reason for God to even intervene in our lives. There are like dust particles to him, negligible significance to him. He won't even bother to send Jesus down to this specific planet. This all assuming there's a deity in the first place.

I'm still curious. How would you answer if a theist claims that God does not influence us physically, but through the intangible world (emotions, consciousness, souls and whatnot)?

I argued that emotions can be detected through various machines we have nowadays, but the reply was that the essence of the emotions cannot be detected by the machines, only states.

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03-05-2012, 09:56 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
I read this thread, and all I can think of is Yog-Sothoth...

Y'know, if god were an eldritch horror, it would make a lot of sense...
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03-05-2012, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2012 04:25 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-05-2012 09:52 PM)robotworld Wrote:  Theists usually say God exists out of time. So either God cannot perceive time, or that his perception of time is so warped that 1 billion years seems like a single second to him, which means that there is no reason for God to even intervene in our lives. There are like dust particles to him, negligible significance to him. He won't even bother to send Jesus down to this specific planet. This all assuming there's a deity in the first place.

I'm still curious. How would you answer if a theist claims that God does not influence us physically, but through the intangible world (emotions, consciousness, souls and whatnot)?

Try the other direction. Perception is a process. It requires time. Existence is a process, it requires time. Intervention is a process .. requires time. Creation is an act .. requires time, (which had to "begin" before the creation of time, (meaningless statement)). Loving is a process, consciousness is a process, sending Jeebus is a process, "like dust particles" is a perception process. There is no need to debate intervention, because, they have not cooked up a being who can "exist" without the dimension of time. In this universe space and time are united, (Relativity). If the deity requires time for it's existence, it can't be the creator of the dimensions required for it's existence. Therefore it's not god, (First Cause of time). Then there's the ULTIMATE time/god conundrum. Their god CHANGED. It required and became appeased by the death of his son. It's all bullshit. They tried to deal with this HUGE problem at the Council of Nicaea, ("eternally begotten of the Father" .... "Deum de Deo, Lumen de Lumine, Deum verum de Deo vero, genitum, non factum, consubstatialem Patri, bla bla bla (in Latin..), ...known as the "filioque procedit" problem, in Theology...) from the Nicean Creed, ...but it's meaningless). It's the same as saying "black is white". Either you are "begotten, or you're "not begotten". Saying he was "begotten not made", is meaningless. If you ARE "begotten", you are NOT eternal. "Genitum" IS "factum". It's a distinction, without a difference. Aquinas never advanced the discussion, and just said he did not understand it. Tongue
Intervention requires a mechanism. There are Laws of Physics, and Chemistry. Do they think the Laws of Physics are interruped by the intervention. If so, how exactly ? Would that not mean the "laws" are not "laws", thus creation of "laws" is flawed ? Does that mean their god changes the orbits of the electrons in the carbon atoms of the brain cells ? Oh Please. The chemical mechanisms, and locations of "emotions" are known, (to some degree..and learning every day). There is no "consiousness" or emotions without brain cells. Is there consciousness in your toe ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein (That's a JOKE, ya idiot)
"And you quit footing the bill for these nations that are oil rich - we're paying for some of their *squirmishes* that have been going on for centuries" - Sarah Palin
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04-05-2012, 01:05 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-05-2012 09:18 PM)robotworld Wrote:  I heard of another variation that he is not bounded by reality, but still bounded by logic. He can still create a rock so big he can't lift it, but he chooses not too -_-

It starts with:
1) Show me physical evidence of the Lord.
2) God is outside space and time
3) Then show me any influence of the Lord on the physical realm, otherwise he is obsolete.
4) God influences us not through the physical world, but through our spiritual self, our consciousness. Introspection will allow you to find him. Science is limited only to the physical world.
5) ...

I'm always stuck here. Any hints?
A logical premise of "show me physical evidence of the Lord"? I'm pretty sure theists wouldn't even bother accepting that before moving on to premise 2... it isn't structured like a logical premise and there's no reason why a theist should feel that he or she has to provide "physical" evidence. However, if you want an example of an argument against God simply on logic and not on science, then may I present TANG (The Transcendental Argument for the Non-Existence of God).

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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04-05-2012, 01:07 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
You might enjoy this thread Starcrash.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...noggins-on

“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect.”

-Mark Twain
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04-05-2012, 01:46 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-05-2012 01:07 PM)germanyt Wrote:  You might enjoy this thread Starcrash.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...noggins-on
Yes, it's interesting, but... the universe doesn't appear to have an edge. Think of it like being inside a ball. You could reach the boundary, but at that point you'd just find yourself moving along it and not through it. When the big bang happened, it wasn't just an explosion of matter filling empty space --- the empty space is part of the expanding universe.

It's not like there's some big force field or something holding it all in, it's just that the physical properties that allow us to travel from one place to another would fail to work outside of the universe. The best analogy I can think of is living in a 2D world and trying to get to the 3rd dimension. You can't simply get there by going past the edge of the page. Your physical limitations just wouldn't allow you to ever perceive, measure, or enter the 3rd dimension.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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