Outside of Space and Time
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10-11-2013, 03:27 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
Is it possible that there was nothing here, but something somewhere else. I mean if a singularity was the something that occured - it could have originated from somewhere else?

Just sayin thats all!
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10-11-2013, 03:35 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(10-11-2013 03:27 AM)Declan Molloy Wrote:  Is it possible that there was nothing here, but something somewhere else. I mean if a singularity was the something that occured - it could have originated from somewhere else?

Just sayin thats all!

Somewhere else is a something. If there was a somewhere else then there is not nothing.
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10-11-2013, 04:00 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(08-11-2013 01:34 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Because if there really was nothing, then all of our laws of logic, intuition, the laws of nature and physics; all of that does not apply. In such a sate of nothingness, without any guiding rules, law, or principles; then anything is possible because nothing is impossible.

I may be misunderstanding you but in a state of nothingness there is nothing upon which any law statements to apply, there are neither subjects nor objects. If there are neither subjects nor objects then everything is possible only in a logical sense of possibility. But nomothetically such a state is barren.
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10-11-2013, 04:03 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(10-11-2013 03:27 AM)Declan Molloy Wrote:  Is it possible that there was nothing here, but something somewhere else. I mean if a singularity was the something that occured - it could have originated from somewhere else?

Just sayin thats all!

The notion of "somewhere else" is predicated on location in space. If there is location in space, there is space and there is at least one thing that has extension in space because it is being described in spatial terms ("somewhere else"). Hence it is--as HJ pointed out--something.
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10-11-2013, 10:44 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  What exists outside of space and time? Is it possible to be "located" within an area devoid of locations? How does cause and effect work outside of time?

I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. We can guess, but that's the best we can do. Nobody has ever observed a world without space or without time, so we don't have observational evidence. Any scientific test we run will be within both space and time, so there's no way to separate those variables and figure out what would happen without them. We'll just never be sure what a lack of space and time entails.

This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there. They didn't get this revelation from the bible because it not only doesn't use the phrase "outside of space and time", but it doesn't even suggest that this is true of God. Nor should we expect it to... Einstein figured out that space and time were not constants, and the world of human knowledge had a mistaken view of them for its entirety until Einstein developed his theory. The book of Genesis doesn't have an account of the creation of time because the writers of the book didn't realize that it needed a creation account, but we know now that the concept of "days" is not fixed and required the creation of time before Day 1 of creation. This is why God is now seen as necessarily existing outside of space and time, although there's no reason to posit a plane that lacks space or time simply because it's necessary to explain God... this plane likely doesn't exist, and God is vacationing there in mutual non-existence.

You question posits that space is finite, and that time is finite.

Logically, what we call the "Universe" is infinite, and time is merely a construct within eternity.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-11-2013, 10:48 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(10-11-2013 10:44 AM)Free Wrote:  
(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  What exists outside of space and time? Is it possible to be "located" within an area devoid of locations? How does cause and effect work outside of time?

I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. We can guess, but that's the best we can do. Nobody has ever observed a world without space or without time, so we don't have observational evidence. Any scientific test we run will be within both space and time, so there's no way to separate those variables and figure out what would happen without them. We'll just never be sure what a lack of space and time entails.

This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there. They didn't get this revelation from the bible because it not only doesn't use the phrase "outside of space and time", but it doesn't even suggest that this is true of God. Nor should we expect it to... Einstein figured out that space and time were not constants, and the world of human knowledge had a mistaken view of them for its entirety until Einstein developed his theory. The book of Genesis doesn't have an account of the creation of time because the writers of the book didn't realize that it needed a creation account, but we know now that the concept of "days" is not fixed and required the creation of time before Day 1 of creation. This is why God is now seen as necessarily existing outside of space and time, although there's no reason to posit a plane that lacks space or time simply because it's necessary to explain God... this plane likely doesn't exist, and God is vacationing there in mutual non-existence.

You question posits that space is finite, and that time is finite.

Logically, what we call the "Universe" is infinite, and time is merely a construct within eternity.

No, he doesn't posit that at all. He merely points out that we exist in space/time and that there is no evidence that there is any "outside".

And those who talk about "outside" are just making shit up.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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10-11-2013, 10:51 AM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2013 10:55 AM by Free.)
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(10-11-2013 10:48 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 10:44 AM)Free Wrote:  You question posits that space is finite, and that time is finite.

Logically, what we call the "Universe" is infinite, and time is merely a construct within eternity.

No, he doesn't posit that at all. He merely points out that we exist in space/time and that there is no evidence that there is any "outside".

And those who talk about "outside" are just making shit up.

He asked the question of "What exists outside space and time?"

My response was directed at that question only, hense whay I began with "Your question ..."

But perhaps I should have edited out the rest of what he said in his quote and minimized the chance for confusion.

My bad ...

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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10-11-2013, 03:15 PM (This post was last modified: 10-11-2013 09:40 PM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(10-11-2013 02:32 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(08-11-2013 01:34 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Because if there really was nothing, then all of our laws of logic, intuition, the laws of nature and physics; all of that does not apply. In such a sate of nothingness, without any guiding rules, law, or principles; then anything is possible because nothing is impossible.

How do you know the bolded part is true if logic, intuition, etc do not apply?

I disagree with what you said because the potential for something to exist is itself something. The only way to answer the question is with logic, intuition, etc because those things do exist. You're basically saying that if nothing truly exist then something truly exists(the potential for anything) which is nonsensical.

You are trying to apply the rules of logic onto a state where those rules do not exist (because those rules are something, and we are talking about a state of nothingness), so that is your fundamental flaw. Is it sort of nonsensical? Sure, but then so is the concept of absolute nothingness. Absolute nothingness could be quite possibly outside of the range of our imagination, comprehension, or the limits of our language to describe it.

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10-11-2013, 03:29 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(10-11-2013 03:15 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(10-11-2013 02:32 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  How do you know the bolded part is true if logic, intuition, etc do not apply?

I disagree with what you said because the potential for something to exist is itself something. The only way to answer the question is with logic, intuition, etc because those things do exist. You're basically saying that if nothing truly exist then something truly exists(the potential for anything) which is nonsensical.

You are trying to apply the rules of logic onto a sate where those rules do not exist (because those rules are something, and we are talking about a state of nothingness), so that is your fundamental flaw. Is it sort of nonsensical? Sure, but then so is the concept of absolute nothingness. Absolute nothingness could be quite possibly outside of the range of our imagination, comprehension, or the limits of our language to describe it.

We can now merge this thread with my Infinity vs. Nothing thread.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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16-11-2014, 07:47 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there. They didn't get this revelation from the bible because it not only doesn't use the phrase "outside of space and time", but it doesn't even suggest that this is true of God.

Actually, the creation of time is the first creation mentioned in Genesis. Genesis 1:1 states, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
The first created thing was a "beginning". This concept is not new to Judaism, Rabbi Saadia Gaon, a 10th century scholar and philosopher, explains that the term "in the beginning" implies the very first moment of time. That God created time includes the notion that He exists apart from it, "outside space and time".
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