Outside of Space and Time
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17-11-2014, 06:51 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(16-11-2014 07:47 PM)BPatton Wrote:  
(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there. They didn't get this revelation from the bible because it not only doesn't use the phrase "outside of space and time", but it doesn't even suggest that this is true of God.

Actually, the creation of time is the first creation mentioned in Genesis. Genesis 1:1 states, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
The first created thing was a "beginning". This concept is not new to Judaism, Rabbi Saadia Gaon, a 10th century scholar and philosopher, explains that the term "in the beginning" implies the very first moment of time. That God created time includes the notion that He exists apart from it, "outside space and time".

Well that's convenient. By all means take whatever phrase you choose and let it mean whatever you need it to. I think that's the same process rapists use when they hear a woman screaming "No!".
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18-11-2014, 11:27 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  What exists outside of space and time? Is it possible to be "located" within an area devoid of locations? How does cause and effect work outside of time?

I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. We can guess, but that's the best we can do. Nobody has ever observed a world without space or without time, so we don't have observational evidence. Any scientific test we run will be within both space and time, so there's no way to separate those variables and figure out what would happen without them. We'll just never be sure what a lack of space and time entails.

This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there. They didn't get this revelation from the bible because it not only doesn't use the phrase "outside of space and time", but it doesn't even suggest that this is true of God. Nor should we expect it to... Einstein figured out that space and time were not constants, and the world of human knowledge had a mistaken view of them for its entirety until Einstein developed his theory. The book of Genesis doesn't have an account of the creation of time because the writers of the book didn't realize that it needed a creation account, but we know now that the concept of "days" is not fixed and required the creation of time before Day 1 of creation. This is why God is now seen as necessarily existing outside of space and time, although there's no reason to posit a plane that lacks space or time simply because it's necessary to explain God... this plane likely doesn't exist, and God is vacationing there in mutual non-existence.

I think it is an arbitrary concept. It doesn't deserve any consideration. If somebody can demonstrate that such a thing exists then I'll consider it.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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18-11-2014, 11:42 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(16-11-2014 07:47 PM)BPatton Wrote:  
(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there. They didn't get this revelation from the bible because it not only doesn't use the phrase "outside of space and time", but it doesn't even suggest that this is true of God.

Actually, the creation of time is the first creation mentioned in Genesis. Genesis 1:1 states, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
The first created thing was a "beginning". This concept is not new to Judaism, Rabbi Saadia Gaon, a 10th century scholar and philosopher, explains that the term "in the beginning" implies the very first moment of time. That God created time includes the notion that He exists apart from it, "outside space and time".

Actually it's not. Who gives a shit about what some 10 Century "scholar" says about an ancient myth ? It implies no such thing. It also explains nothing. The decision to "create", and the beginning of the "act" would have had to begin "before" time, which is utterly meaningless, as is "outside" space-time. "Outside" is a spatial reference. Without space, a spatial reference is meaningless.

*As if* it all has anything to say to humans in 2014. The entire myth is created of a cosmology from the ancient Near East. Verse 2: The earth was a formless wasteland, and darkness covered the the ABYSS, while a mighty wind swept over the waters....

oops. The cause of wind is not made yet, the stars and cosmos are not created yet, but somehow the Earth is in place with water, and the god is "moving" over it.

It's straight from the Babylonian Enuma Elish, which many of the other myths were taken from.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...other-Look
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ic-Origins

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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19-11-2014, 08:34 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
On the subject of "moving over the waters":



(Starting at 3:00)

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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19-11-2014, 08:56 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(16-11-2014 07:47 PM)BPatton Wrote:  
(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there. They didn't get this revelation from the bible because it not only doesn't use the phrase "outside of space and time", but it doesn't even suggest that this is true of God.

Actually, the creation of time is the first creation mentioned in Genesis. Genesis 1:1 states, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
The first created thing was a "beginning". This concept is not new to Judaism, Rabbi Saadia Gaon, a 10th century scholar and philosopher, explains that the term "in the beginning" implies the very first moment of time. That God created time includes the notion that He exists apart from it, "outside space and time".

Except it doesn't say what you say it says. Read the words as they are, not how they echo in your brain cavity.
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26-11-2014, 08:18 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there.

This is done for two reasons:
  1. They can't actually see him, yet he has to be somewhere. Saying he's outside of space and time sounds way more awesome than "hanging out on the far side of Neptune".
  2. It's sort of a prerequisite for the Cosmological Argument.

Really, God is only "outside of space and time" when talking to skeptics. When they talk to each other, he's all over the place and inside our hearts (yet, invisible); it's only when people start asking the hard questions that God becomes very distant and vague.


(03-05-2012 09:56 PM)Sethala Wrote:  I read this thread, and all I can think of is Yog-Sothoth...

Y'know, if god were an eldritch horror, it would make a lot of sense...

Heck, how do you know he isn't?
  • No one has ever seen his face, because no mortal can handle it.
  • He does great and terrible things that are excused by his followers as "mysterious".
  • He once walked the Earth and did incredible things, yet now, he is waiting, to return as the harbinger of death and destruction.
  • He is described as having existed beyond space and time.
Swap out "handsome white guy" with "tentacle monster" and boom: the Bible becomes Lovecraftian horror!
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02-01-2015, 04:17 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
Why should it be laughable for a Christian to posit something that the Bible seems to suggest? Wouldn't that merely be consistent with their faith and practice?

Why single out Christians? Might not adherents of any Theistic religion consider a deity that is not bound by the constrains his creation?

(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  What exists outside of space and time? Is it possible to be "located" within an area devoid of locations? How does cause and effect work outside of time?

I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. We can guess, but that's the best we can do. Nobody has ever observed a world without space or without time, so we don't have observational evidence. Any scientific test we run will be within both space and time, so there's no way to separate those variables and figure out what would happen without them. We'll just never be sure what a lack of space and time entails.

This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there. They didn't get this revelation from the bible because it not only doesn't use the phrase "outside of space and time", but it doesn't even suggest that this is true of God. Nor should we expect it to... Einstein figured out that space and time were not constants, and the world of human knowledge had a mistaken view of them for its entirety until Einstein developed his theory. The book of Genesis doesn't have an account of the creation of time because the writers of the book didn't realize that it needed a creation account, but we know now that the concept of "days" is not fixed and required the creation of time before Day 1 of creation. This is why God is now seen as necessarily existing outside of space and time, although there's no reason to posit a plane that lacks space or time simply because it's necessary to explain God... this plane likely doesn't exist, and God is vacationing there in mutual non-existence.
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02-01-2015, 04:30 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
Proving the existence of God with science is impossible. Conversely, disproving God with Science is impossible. Both require faith in equal measure I would submit.

(03-05-2012 09:18 PM)robotworld Wrote:  I heard of another variation that he is not bounded by reality, but still bounded by logic. He can still create a rock so big he can't lift it, but he chooses not too -_-

It starts with:
1) Show me physical evidence of the Lord.
2) God is outside space and time
3) Then show me any influence of the Lord on the physical realm, otherwise he is obsolete.
4) God influences us not through the physical world, but through our spiritual self, our consciousness. Introspection will allow you to find him. Science is limited only to the physical world.
5) ...

I'm always stuck here. Any hints?
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02-01-2015, 06:36 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(02-01-2015 04:30 PM)christiancarr Wrote:  Proving the existence of God with science is impossible. Conversely, disproving God with Science is impossible. Both require faith in equal measure I would submit.
Facepalm

How is lack of belief faith? Why is it relevant whether or not atheists have faith anyway?
An assertion that atheists have faith is just a dodge that does not address the lack of evidence for a god.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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02-01-2015, 07:29 PM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2015 09:17 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(02-01-2015 04:30 PM)christiancarr Wrote:  Proving the existence of God with science is impossible. Conversely, disproving God with Science is impossible. Both require faith in equal measure I would submit.

No one has to disprove anything. Christians posit that faith is a gift of their god. You have not read St. Paul ? Are you saying the gift of faith from your god IN your god is equivalent to faith in NO god ? IF they both require "faith in equal measure", then your god apparently dishes out disbelief in equal measure.

You submit wrong.

If what you say is true, then you also accept (could have "faith") that there could be a 1957 Chevy orbiting Pluto, and you (or anyone) cannot disprove that.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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