Outside of Space and Time
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04-01-2015, 03:38 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-01-2015 03:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-01-2015 12:55 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You can prove real things, but you can't prove abstract concepts.
You can't prove that the number one exists, you can't prove that a circle exists, you can't prove that love exists. So of course you can't prove that god exists.

I can prove that one exists within a formal system. And two. And three...

If I assume that zero exists, and assume the operation of Successor,
then 1 = S(0) and 2 = S(1) = S(S(0) and so forth.
That is still a concept. The concept of a numbering system. This is an abstract concept, it doesn't exist as a real thing.

1 itself doesn't exist other than as an abstract concept. How much does 1 weigh? Is it a fermion hence it takes up space, if so then how much volume of space does 1 take up?
If it is a boson then how much force does it excerpt? Which particles does this force interact with?
Is it translucent? does it have a colour? Is it affected by gravity (the shape of spacetime)?
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04-01-2015, 04:01 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-01-2015 03:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(04-01-2015 03:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  I can prove that one exists within a formal system. And two. And three...

If I assume that zero exists, and assume the operation of Successor,
then 1 = S(0) and 2 = S(1) = S(S(0) and so forth.
That is still a concept. The concept of a numbering system. This is an abstract concept, it doesn't exist as a real thing.

1 itself doesn't exist other than as an abstract concept. How much does 1 weigh? Is it a fermion hence it takes up space, if so then how much volume of space does 1 take up?
If it is a boson then how much force does it excerpt? Which particles does this force interact with?
Is it translucent? does it have a colour? Is it affected by gravity (the shape of spacetime)?

Provide a coherent definition of 'exists'.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-01-2015, 04:05 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-01-2015 04:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-01-2015 03:38 PM)Stevil Wrote:  That is still a concept. The concept of a numbering system. This is an abstract concept, it doesn't exist as a real thing.

1 itself doesn't exist other than as an abstract concept. How much does 1 weigh? Is it a fermion hence it takes up space, if so then how much volume of space does 1 take up?
If it is a boson then how much force does it excerpt? Which particles does this force interact with?
Is it translucent? does it have a colour? Is it affected by gravity (the shape of spacetime)?

Provide a coherent definition of 'exists'.

All that is.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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04-01-2015, 04:08 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-01-2015 04:05 PM)Free Wrote:  
(04-01-2015 04:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  Provide a coherent definition of 'exists'.

All that is.

With that definition, thoughts exist, numbers exist, emotions exist, philosophies exist, ...

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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04-01-2015, 04:48 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2015 06:55 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-01-2015 04:01 PM)Chas Wrote:  Provide a coherent definition of 'exists'.
Existence is something that is specific. Something that can be described by examining the existing entity's properties.

As opposed to a general description that can either be applied to specific things or cannot be applied to any specific thing.

For example the concept of "Human" is an abstract concept, we can apply the definition of human to 7 billion specific things. All of them are human. "Human" is a conceptual model. Conceptual modules are used to simplify what you are examining or considering. It used to describe either a physical system or a more complex concept.
You can't ask how tall is a "Human" because the simplified model of Human doesn't come with a size property. It's a simplification and a generalisation.

The number 1 is conceptual. We can have 7 billion groups of 1 human.
This general concept can be applied to many specific things.

The concept of god is an abstract concept. In theory it could be applied to many specific things or even just one specific thing if anything met the criteria. In reality the god concept probably doesn't apply to any existent thing, it probably just applies to an idea born from the human imagination.

In contrast the forum member "Stevil" is a specific thing. There is only one of me. I can be poked and proded and examined, I can be measured and weighed, I can be pulled apart into my constituent parts, you can workout how much of me is water, how much is fat, how much is bone, you can work out which atoms I am made of, what temperature I am at, where I am located and how much space I take up. I am not a generalisation or an abstract model. I am an existent thing.
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04-01-2015, 05:15 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
Quote:Conversely, disproving God with Science is impossible.

We don't have to disprove shit. All I ever say is that there is no evidence for any of the gods invented by the human imagination... including your own. He's your god, you prove it. When you get some evidence send it in and we can discuss it. Until then, I will continue to regard theists as delusional.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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04-01-2015, 05:16 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-01-2015 04:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(04-01-2015 04:05 PM)Free Wrote:  All that is.

With that definition, thoughts exist, numbers exist, emotions exist, philosophies exist, ...

Yes, they do.

Perhaps the definition of existence needs to be expanded upon?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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08-01-2015, 05:54 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
Outside of space and time = outside of nature = supernatural.

It is an inherently useless concept. If something is outside of nature then we as natural beings cannot perceive or evaluate it. If we can perceive or evaluate it then it IS part of the natural world.

The evangelical Christian workaround hinges on a verse that says "the natural man perceiveth not the things of god". The implication being that god can magically allow us to perceive that which is outside of nature, or at least some of it, without violating this logical conundrum. And that something outside of nature can make its existence known within nature without actually being part of it. And by the way, we have a bridge in Brooklyn we'd like to sell you.
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08-01-2015, 05:58 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(08-01-2015 05:54 PM)mordant Wrote:  Outside of space and time = outside of nature = supernatural.

Perhaps not.

Negative Mass

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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24-02-2015, 05:49 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
Time only exist where there is night and day, if there is no day and night, then there is no time. Hmmm.

First, GOD created MAN, then Woman then Temptation then Confusion.Sadcryface
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