Outside of Space and Time
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25-02-2015, 04:51 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(24-02-2015 05:49 AM)viking666 Wrote:  Time only exist where there is night and day, if there is no day and night, then there is no time. Hmmm.

Time in that sense is a human construct. There would still be time even if Earth (the source of our day/night cycle) ceased to exist.
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03-03-2015, 07:47 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
What is "outside space and time"? It's not a place, that's for sure, or at least it's not logical to be.

Let's talk dimensions. The Superstring Theory posits that the univers exists in 10 different dimensions. But these dimensions govern our universe (or any other universe). Putting aside all that we know and asking the question 'what's outside of all of this?', we'll have a hard time answering it.

What's beyond being? We have no idea - nothingness? If so, 'what is' nothingness?
"Nothingness lies coiled in the heart of being - like a worm."
- Jean-Paul Sartre, Being and Nothingness

"I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way." - Carl Sagan
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03-03-2015, 08:08 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-03-2015 07:47 AM)rezider Wrote:  What is "outside space and time"? It's not a place, that's for sure, or at least it's not logical to be.

Let's talk dimensions. The Superstring Theory posits that the univers exists in 10 different dimensions. But these dimensions govern our universe (or any other universe). Putting aside all that we know and asking the question 'what's outside of all of this?', we'll have a hard time answering it.

What's beyond being? We have no idea - nothingness? If so, 'what is' nothingness?
"Nothingness lies coiled in the heart of being - like a worm."
- Jean-Paul Sartre, Being and Nothingness

"normal properties of", not "govern".

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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03-03-2015, 09:14 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(06-05-2012 11:03 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(06-05-2012 06:52 PM)SixForty Wrote:  If the number 3 did not exist, please explain how the process of the big bang created the number 3.

Singularity
Quark-gluon plasma
There you go, one becomes three. Big Grin

3 doesn't exist without differentiation. 3 doesn't exist outside of concept.

I think this needs restating at this point.

... doesn't exist outside of concept.

Are we clear on this or do I need to get another pot of coffee? Dodgy

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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03-03-2015, 09:19 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-03-2015 08:08 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(03-03-2015 07:47 AM)rezider Wrote:  What is "outside space and time"? It's not a place, that's for sure, or at least it's not logical to be.

Let's talk dimensions. The Superstring Theory posits that the univers exists in 10 different dimensions. But these dimensions govern our universe (or any other universe). Putting aside all that we know and asking the question 'what's outside of all of this?', we'll have a hard time answering it.

What's beyond being? We have no idea - nothingness? If so, 'what is' nothingness?
"Nothingness lies coiled in the heart of being - like a worm."
- Jean-Paul Sartre, Being and Nothingness

"normal properties of", not "govern".

Agreed! Pardon my mistake.

"I don't know where I'm going, but I'm on my way." - Carl Sagan
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14-03-2015, 04:26 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  What exists outside of space and time?

Well, God does not currently exist outside of time, but he DID exist outside of time before the creation..now, he is forever subjected to the temporal realm in the sense that he cannot transcend time.

(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Is it possible to be "located" within an area devoid of locations? How does cause and effect work outside of time?

If a bowling ball is resting on the cushion of a couch for eternity, the pressure of the ball is causing the indentation of the cushion, WITHOUT there being a preceding moment in time at which the indentation began.

This is called simultaneous causation. Yes, causes precede effects, but causes does not NECESSARILY precede effects...and it is important to make that distinction.

(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. We can guess, but that's the best we can do.

We do know.

(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Nobody has ever observed a world without space or without time, so we don't have observational evidence.

Well hell, no one has ever observed a reptile-bird transformation either. Besides, a world without space or time can not exist based on what we DO KNOW...regarding a universe that BEGAN to exist.

(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Any scientific test we run will be within both space and time, so there's no way to separate those variables and figure out what would happen without them. We'll just never be sure what a lack of space and time entails.

Yeah but the question is how did it get here in the first place...we already know that not only ISN'T the universe eternal, but that it CAN'T possibly be eternal...therefore a transcendent cause is necessary.

(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there.

Straw man. No one is arguing that God is outside of space and time..the argument is that since space and time BEGAN TO EXIST, then whatever gave it its beginning had to be OUTSIDE OF space and time. This is obvious. The argument is that God was outside of space and time BEFORE creation, and he entered the temporal realm AFTER creation.

(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  They didn't get this revelation from the bible because it not only doesn't use the phrase "outside of space and time", but it doesn't even suggest that this is true of God.

The first 10 words of the Bible is clear..."In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth". "Heavens" in this context is another word for "outer space", and earth is obviously, the earth. If outer space/ the earth was created, then there was a point at which neither existed. You can't have a physical realm without space, and you can't have a universe that is constantly in a state of change without time. This is called the space-time continuum. You can't have one without the other...all three had to come into existence at the exact same "time", and coincidentally, this is exactly what the Big Bang model suggests actually happened.

Again, in order for space, time, energy, and matter (STEM) to BEGIN to exist, whatever gave it its beginning had to transcend all four (except for energy, it is the physical energy that began to exist).

(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Nor should we expect it to... Einstein figured out that space and time were not constants, and the world of human knowledge had a mistaken view of them for its entirety until Einstein developed his theory. The book of Genesis doesn't have an account of the creation of time because the writers of the book didn't realize that it needed a creation account, but we know now that the concept of "days" is not fixed and required the creation of time before Day 1 of creation. This is why God is now seen as necessarily existing outside of space and time, although there's no reason to posit a plane that lacks space or time simply because it's necessary to explain God... this plane likely doesn't exist, and God is vacationing there in mutual non-existence.

The Book of Genesis is the ONLY ancient book that states that the universe BEGAN to exist after having previously been nonexistent. The Bible is the only ancient book that talks about the universe stretching (expanding) as it has just RECENTLY been discovering to be doing. The Bible says that the animals will "bring forth after their kind", which is all that humans have EVER observed animals to do.

No other ancient book of religion is worthy of untying the sandals of Judeo-Christianity.
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14-03-2015, 04:33 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
I wonder what happened to Starcrash.

I liked his stuff.

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15-03-2015, 04:34 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(14-03-2015 04:33 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I wonder what happened to Starcrash.

I liked his stuff.

He was weak in maths.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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16-03-2015, 04:08 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(15-03-2015 04:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(14-03-2015 04:33 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I wonder what happened to Starcrash.

I liked his stuff.

He was weak in maths.

Yup. That's the last thing I remember... him going off to investigate infinite sets (or similar) after being bashed over the head by Cantor.

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17-03-2015, 05:56 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(14-03-2015 04:26 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Well, God does not currently exist outside of time, but he DID exist outside of time before the creation..now, he is forever subjected to the temporal realm in the sense that he cannot transcend time.

He used to exist outside of space and time and he doesn't now? Do you understand how incoherent and self-defeating that is? How does something that is outside of time make decisions and take causal actions? Nothing can cause anything if it's all simultaneous. How does he "stop being outside of space and time"?

This suffers the same problem of dualism; wondering how the soul interfaces with the physical body. You posit the need for a god that is outside of space and time, yet you need him to interface with the physical universe in some way.
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