Outside of Space and Time
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24-03-2015, 11:09 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(24-03-2015 09:52 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  ...
Thank you. I shall peruse your back and forth with GwoG and see if anything stands out.
...

I had some time to kill while today's exam was in progress, so I browsed through the 400+ posts.

Nothing. Blink Lots of bluster but no substance.

No need to waste your time, Peeb.

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24-03-2015, 11:20 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(24-03-2015 11:09 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I had some time to kill while today's exam was in progress, so I browsed through the 400+ posts.

Nothing. Blink Lots of bluster but no substance.

No need to waste your time, Peeb.

*Bows*

Thank you for your time and effort. WHile I won't have time to peruse the boards much over the coming days, that Call_of_the_Wild can't even remember a cognizant quote with which to show their 'stuff' -As it were- does say alot about their position.


Much cheers to all.
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25-03-2015, 03:59 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(24-03-2015 11:42 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Well, a spirit is outside of space, obviously...and a spirit that is outside of space, in a timeless state before creation...would be a spirit that is outside of space & time.

That was easy.

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"The person who is certain, and who claims divine warrant for his certainty, belongs now to the infancy of our species." - Christopher Hitchens

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25-03-2015, 07:11 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(24-03-2015 11:42 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  The act of BEGINNING to stand, whatever you want to call it, represents a CHANGE, and change requires time.

If there was no time, how did it "begin"?


(24-03-2015 11:42 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  To stand is to be in motion, right? If the man was sitting perfectly still for eternity, at which the concept of time has yet to exist...and the man BEGINS to stand, that act/motion/movement occurs..........SIMULTANEOUSLY........with the first moment of time.

So two things are happening at the exact same moment..

1. The man begins to stand
2. Time begins

No, you left out the part where I said that standing and motion are the same thing, and you left out the part where I said that the standing would have to be preceded by a decision to stand. Think about it in terms broader than just "standing up":
  • He stood up. Why?
  • Because he decided to. Why?
  • Because he wanted some cookies. What cookies?
  • The ones in his cupboard. How'd they get there?
  • He bought them yesterday. From where?
  • The store. How'd they get there?
  • Delivery truck from the factory. How'd they get on the truck?
  • Delivery guy put them on there after they were made.
And you're saying this is all simultaneous. That's right. Some cookies were made and instantaneously delivered to all the stores at the exact same instant God was shopping and the same instant that he put the cookies in his cupboard and decided to stand up to get them.

What. The actual. FUCK? It's nonsense. It's gibberish. It's incoherent.


(24-03-2015 11:42 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  But, if you don't have a reference point, you will never be able to arrive at the present day, but the fact that we have "reached" the present day...this could only occur if there is a past boundary to time...a starting point.

And how did it start? At the same instant that everything preceding it happened? See the cookie thing above.

This whole thing is just some double-speak to reconcile "first causes" and "infinite regress". The problem is, it's purely speculative. You see this same double-speak when talking about the Trinity or the problem of evil. It's a reoccurring theme for Christianity. That should be telling.


(24-03-2015 11:42 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  So it all makes damn good sense if you just open your closed mind, use common sense, and just let God settle in your heart.

See, that should be your warning flag right there. This only "makes sense" if you accept nonfalsifiable stuff a priori. That's why I stopped believing in the first place. I realized it only "works" if I accept a bunch of stuff at face value despite it not making sense.

And I am open minded. It's how I got from being Christian for 30 years to being willing to let it all go.


(24-03-2015 11:42 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Well, a spirit is outside of space, obviously...and a spirit that is outside of space, in a timeless state before creation...would be a spirit that is outside of space & time.

That was easy.

And where is "outside of space"? How does one get there? By what mechanism does one get from there to here? By what mechanism does one start "being inside of time"?
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25-03-2015, 07:29 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
Genesis 11:4-5-

11:4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Men build a tower to reach heaven where god is supposedly at, god feels threatened and confuses their language.

God is in heaven, a few miles above the surface of the Earth.

We could build a tower to physically reach heaven, this god is in this universe, just a few miles away above the firmament.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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25-03-2015, 07:39 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(25-03-2015 07:29 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Genesis 11:4-5-

11:4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Men build a tower to reach heaven where god is supposedly at, god feels threatened and confuses their language.

God is in heaven, a few miles above the surface of the Earth.

We could build a tower to physically reach heaven, this god is in this universe, just a few miles away above the firmament.

The stock argument is likely that the people believed they could reach God with a tower, and he was mad at their hubris. CotW will pick up and brush off science when it suits him, only to stash it away in a dark place when it doesn't.
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25-03-2015, 08:55 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(24-03-2015 11:20 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(24-03-2015 11:09 PM)DLJ Wrote:  I had some time to kill while today's exam was in progress, so I browsed through the 400+ posts.

Nothing. Blink Lots of bluster but no substance.

No need to waste your time, Peeb.

*Bows*

Thank you for your time and effort. WHile I won't have time to peruse the boards much over the coming days, that Call_of_the_Wild can't even remember a cognizant quote with which to show their 'stuff' -As it were- does say alot about their position.


Much cheers to all.

But then again...lets be honest. Is it reasonable to expect you to look through my posts and say "Holy sweet mother of Jesus, he sure did kick a lot of ass!!!"

A snowflake has a better chance in hell.
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25-03-2015, 09:53 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(25-03-2015 07:29 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Genesis 11:4-5-

11:4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
11:5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

Men build a tower to reach heaven where god is supposedly at, god feels threatened and confuses their language.

God is in heaven, a few miles above the surface of the Earth.

We could build a tower to physically reach heaven, this god is in this universe, just a few miles away above the firmament.

Laughable. The word "heaven" can either mean the place where God dwells, or it can mean the skies...and there are other meanings for it as well. Paul mentioned at least three in 2 Corin 12:2. They were trying to build a tower to reach the skies, not to reach God's dwelling place.

Children, please Laugh out load
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25-03-2015, 10:08 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(25-03-2015 07:11 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  If there was no time, how did it "begin"?

Dude, I just explained it to you. If you still have the nerve to ask how did time begin, then I can't help you.

What you need to worry about is how could any present moment in time come to past if an infinite number of past moments preceded it. That is where your focus should be.

(25-03-2015 07:11 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  No, you left out the part where I said that standing and motion are the same thing, and you left out the part where I said that the standing would have to be preceded by a decision to stand. Think about it in terms broader than just "standing up":

You left out the part where I said that God had an eternal will to create the universe, so nothing "preceded" his decision to create the universe. It was something that he was always going to do...so there could be nothing "before" an eternal decision.

(25-03-2015 07:11 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  [*]He stood up. Why?
[*]Because he decided to. Why?
[*]Because he wanted some cookies. What cookies?
[*]The ones in his cupboard. How'd they get there?
[*]He bought them yesterday. From where?
[*]The store. How'd they get there?
[*]Delivery truck from the factory. How'd they get on the truck?
[*]Delivery guy put them on there after they were made.
[/list]

Asking questions of "why" is irrelevant. We are focusing on the "what" question now. I understand you want to move goal posts and everything...but I'd like to keep things in their proper perspective, if you don't mind.

(25-03-2015 07:11 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  And you're saying this is all simultaneous. That's right. Some cookies were made and instantaneously delivered to all the stores at the exact same instant God was shopping and the same instant that he put the cookies in his cupboard and decided to stand up to get them.

I will leave the cookie talk to you.

(25-03-2015 07:11 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  What. The actual. FUCK? It's nonsense. It's gibberish. It's incoherent.

You are using pretty strong words there for someone that has yet to offer a defeater to anything I said.

(25-03-2015 07:11 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  This whole thing is just some double-speak to reconcile "first causes" and "infinite regress". The problem is, it's purely speculative. You see this same double-speak when talking about the Trinity or the problem of evil. It's a reoccurring theme for Christianity. That should be telling.

Red Herring.

(25-03-2015 07:11 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  See, that should be your warning flag right there. This only "makes sense" if you accept nonfalsifiable stuff a priori. That's why I stopped believing in the first place. I realized it only "works" if I accept a bunch of stuff at face value despite it not making sense.

And I am open minded. It's how I got from being Christian for 30 years to being willing to let it all go.

Thumbsup Hey, whatever rattles your chain, good sir.


(25-03-2015 07:11 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  And where is "outside of space"? How does one get there? By what mechanism does one get from there to here? By what mechanism does one start "being inside of time"?

This is the first time since I've been a member of this good forum that I feel like I actually wasted my time replying to posts. Red herrings...straw mans...continuing to ask questions that has already been covered.

Wasted my freakin time Dodgy
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25-03-2015, 11:52 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(25-03-2015 10:08 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Dude, I just explained it to you. If you still have the nerve to ask how did time begin, then I can't help you.

The irony of this is not lost on me.


(25-03-2015 10:08 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  I will leave the cookie talk to you.

Of course you'd dodge actual criticism of your stupid, incoherent ideas.


(25-03-2015 10:08 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  You are using pretty strong words there for someone that has yet to offer a defeater to anything I said.

It's hard to "defeat" you when you don't respond to what I say.


(25-03-2015 10:08 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Red Herring.

I call it context.


(25-03-2015 10:08 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  This is the first time since I've been a member of this good forum that I feel like I actually wasted my time replying to posts. Red herrings...straw mans...continuing to ask questions that has already been covered.

Wasted my freakin time Dodgy

I'll do both of us a favor and put you on ignore like I almost did when I first encountered you weeks ago. Fucking troll.
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