Outside of Space and Time
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04-05-2012, 01:50 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-05-2012 01:46 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(04-05-2012 01:07 PM)germanyt Wrote:  You might enjoy this thread Starcrash.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...noggins-on
Yes, it's interesting, but... the universe doesn't appear to have an edge. Think of it like being inside a ball. You could reach the boundary, but at that point you'd just find yourself moving along it and not through it. When the big bang happened, it wasn't just an explosion of matter filling empty space --- the empty space is part of the expanding universe.

It's not like there's some big force field or something holding it all in, it's just that the physical properties that allow us to travel from one place to another would fail to work outside of the universe. The best analogy I can think of is living in a 2D world and trying to get to the 3rd dimension. You can't simply get there by going past the edge of the page. Your physical limitations just wouldn't allow you to ever perceive, measure, or enter the 3rd dimension.
Clearly but logic would tell us that if something has an edge or boudary then there must be something on the other side causing that boundary to be there. I'm fairly certain there is an edge and something on the outside. How to get there or what it is I have no idea.

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04-05-2012, 02:52 PM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2012 03:23 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-05-2012 01:50 PM)germanyt Wrote:  Clearly but logic would tell us that if something has an edge or boudary then there must be something on the other side causing that boundary to be there. I'm fairly certain there is an edge and something on the outside. How to get there or what it is I have no idea.


In "A Universe From Nothing" Krauss discusses, if there were a Multiverse, how it might be detectable.




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04-05-2012, 03:02 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
I'll have to watch it when I get home. I've actually never read/listened to Krauss before.

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04-05-2012, 06:52 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-05-2012 09:28 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Name one property/quality of "existence" that does not require/procede in time.
The Gwynnie thing. Tongue

Drawing Gwyneth led to the thought of love/entropy/geometry; god as philosophy is not a wrong answer.

Of course they (theists) never seem to comprehend the concept of eternity as timelessness. The thing I go on about, needing space to move, comes right outta the tao. No way god is speaking through the Bible with the lack of god speaking so clearly through the tao te ching. Wink

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04-05-2012, 08:14 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-05-2012 02:52 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  In "A Universe From Nothing" Krauss discusses, if there were a Multiverse, how it might be detectable.
Thank you for this video! I hadn't intended to watch the whole thing but once I started I couldn't stop! Krauss' book is in my local library - I hope to take a look at it soon.

"The amazing thing is that every atom in your body came from a star that exploded. ... So, forget Jesus. The stars died so that you could be here today." -- Lawrence Krauss
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04-05-2012, 10:55 PM (This post was last modified: 04-05-2012 10:58 PM by mysticjbyrd.)
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-05-2012 01:46 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(04-05-2012 01:07 PM)germanyt Wrote:  You might enjoy this thread Starcrash.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...noggins-on
Yes, it's interesting, but... the universe doesn't appear to have an edge. Think of it like being inside a ball. You could reach the boundary, but at that point you'd just find yourself moving along it and not through it. When the big bang happened, it wasn't just an explosion of matter filling empty space --- the empty space is part of the expanding universe.

It's not like there's some big force field or something holding it all in, it's just that the physical properties that allow us to travel from one place to another would fail to work outside of the universe. The best analogy I can think of is living in a 2D world and trying to get to the 3rd dimension. You can't simply get there by going past the edge of the page. Your physical limitations just wouldn't allow you to ever perceive, measure, or enter the 3rd dimension.
We more than likely live in a multiverse.

A god could potentially exist in another universe, or even the void separating universes (if such a thing exists). If a god lived in another universe, I don't see how it would be possible for him to alter this one in any way. If god lived in the void, for a lack of a better word, then he could potentially alter our universe.

Though any time you move god out of our universe to explain how he created our universe, then you have to explain who created the new area he was located at.

(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  What exists outside of space and time? Is it possible to be "located" within an area devoid of locations? How does cause and effect work outside of time?

I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. We can guess, but that's the best we can do. Nobody has ever observed a world without space or without time, so we don't have observational evidence. Any scientific test we run will be within both space and time, so there's no way to separate those variables and figure out what would happen without them. We'll just never be sure what a lack of space and time entails.

This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there. They didn't get this revelation from the bible because it not only doesn't use the phrase "outside of space and time", but it doesn't even suggest that this is true of God. Nor should we expect it to... Einstein figured out that space and time were not constants, and the world of human knowledge had a mistaken view of them for its entirety until Einstein developed his theory. The book of Genesis doesn't have an account of the creation of time because the writers of the book didn't realize that it needed a creation account, but we know now that the concept of "days" is not fixed and required the creation of time before Day 1 of creation. This is why God is now seen as necessarily existing outside of space and time, although there's no reason to posit a plane that lacks space or time simply because it's necessary to explain God... this plane likely doesn't exist, and God is vacationing there in mutual non-existence.
Essentially what you are describing is God of the gaps.
Science has explained so much that at this point they literally have to move god outside the universe, and the only things left to give him credit for are the birth of the universe and abiogenesis.
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05-05-2012, 03:52 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
I'll stick to the physicalist perspective where existence is physical and/or have a physical basis.

Defining god as timeless and spaceless is just a special pleading because I always get the same answer; "because its god", but theists are unable to explain properly what timeless/spaceless means without making circular arguments.

Besides, an timeless/spaceless god is imposible by definition; How does an timeless/spaceless entity can interact with time and space? The most common answer is, again, a special pleading; "because its god".

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05-05-2012, 04:04 AM (This post was last modified: 05-05-2012 04:15 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(05-05-2012 03:52 AM)MasterRottweiler Wrote:  timeless and spaceless is just a special pleading....a timeless/spaceless god is imposible by definition; How does an timeless/spaceless entity can interact with time and space? The most common answer is, again, a special pleading; "because its god".


Exactly. For the guests stopping by .. "special pleading" is the Fallacy of Special Pleading .. look it up. So it's just back again to what I said before : " Name one property of "existence" that does not require time."

If god IS the "First Cause", that REQUIRES the dimension of time, (and in THIS universe anyway, Relativity has proven it's "spacetime") to be extant ALREADY, or the "cause" cannot "precede" the effect, the "act", (of creation), to "begin" before the creature, and since they will NEVER cook up one property of existence that does not require time, it implies that dimension was NOT created by their god, since it is REQUIRED for the existence of their god.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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05-05-2012, 06:08 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(05-05-2012 04:04 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If god IS the "First Cause", that REQUIRES the dimension of time, (and in THIS universe anyway, Relativity has proven it's "spacetime") to be extant ALREADY, or the "cause" cannot "precede" the effect, the "act", (of creation), to "begin" before the creature, and since they will NEVER cook up one property of existence that does not require time, it implies that dimension was NOT created by their god, since it is REQUIRED for the existence of their god.

SATAN is blinding you to the GLORY of the LAWD!

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05-05-2012, 07:43 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(05-05-2012 06:08 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(05-05-2012 04:04 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If god IS the "First Cause", that REQUIRES the dimension of time, (and in THIS universe anyway, Relativity has proven it's "spacetime") to be extant ALREADY, or the "cause" cannot "precede" the effect, the "act", (of creation), to "begin" before the creature, and since they will NEVER cook up one property of existence that does not require time, it implies that dimension was NOT created by their god, since it is REQUIRED for the existence of their god.


SATAN is blinding you to the GLORY of the LAWD!


Then, all I can say, is ; Praise the Lawd for Satan, and blindness. Weeping

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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