Outside of Space and Time
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29-03-2015, 02:55 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(29-03-2015 11:04 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  But if you count alllllll of the numbers in-between it, you will never reach it, but you should eventually reach it if you could ACTUALLY traverse infinity. That's the point.

If you count all of the numbers in between, you will never reach 10 as you said. But you shouldn't reach it, contrary to your nonsensical claim, because it's infinite. That's the real point.

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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29-03-2015, 09:00 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(29-03-2015 02:55 PM)Impulse Wrote:  If you count all of the numbers in between, you will never reach 10 as you said. But you shouldn't reach it, contrary to your nonsensical claim, because it's infinite. That's the real point.

Actually, you are missing the "real" point. If the goal is to count to 10, and you count all integers in between 1-10, on your view, you've traversed infinity...you've skipped all the numbers between (non-integers) 1-10, and arrived at 10.

Yet, if you were to count all of the numbers (non-integers) in between 1-10, you will never arrive at 10?

If you don't see the absurdity in that, I can't help you.
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29-03-2015, 09:03 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(29-03-2015 11:07 AM)Alex K Wrote:  2300 years out of date

Either there are in infinite amount of points of time, then there's an infinite amount of events. Or there isn't, and there aren't.

I don't want links, I want answers to my questions.
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29-03-2015, 09:06 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(29-03-2015 11:09 AM)Alex K Wrote:  Not if it takes you a finite time for each to count. But even if not, there's an important difference between the various types of infinite cardinal numbers. You can't count the elements of the continuum even if you allow yourself infinite steps, because the natural numbers are aleph zero, while the continuum isn't.

Alex, it CAN'T be done, bro. There is no way around it. There is no way to "arrive" at infinity as a final destination, or is there a way to possess an infinite number of "things", like marbles or baseball cards.

It just can't happen in reality...but this is what must have happened if there wasn't an ultimate first cause.
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29-03-2015, 09:07 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(29-03-2015 11:17 AM)LastPoet Wrote:  A solution to your problem:

1) Buy a Math analisys book
2) While reading it, do the math.
3) Learn that there are non countable(<-- correct term in english? ) Sets
4) Your ignorance has now been defeated

Red herring.
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29-03-2015, 09:14 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(29-03-2015 09:03 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 11:07 AM)Alex K Wrote:  2300 years out of date

Either there are in infinite amount of points of time, then there's an infinite amount of events. Or there isn't, and there aren't.

I don't want links, I want answers to my questions.

Things are more involved and ideas more complex than you seem capable of even conceiving.
You need to read some grown-up books and learn some grown-up ideas.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-03-2015, 09:14 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(29-03-2015 11:02 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  If we imagine a man that is standing on a road with two suitcases of a million dollars in each suitcase...and you are told to walk an infinite amount of steps in his direction and once you do, he will hand you the suitcases...and you continue to walk the infinite amount of steps...will you ever reach him? Yes or no???
Distance itself may be infinite, but he isn't an infinite distance from me.

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29-03-2015, 09:15 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(29-03-2015 09:07 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(29-03-2015 11:17 AM)LastPoet Wrote:  A solution to your problem:

1) Buy a Math analisys book
2) While reading it, do the math.
3) Learn that there are non countable(<-- correct term in english? ) Sets
4) Your ignorance has now been defeated

Red herring.

How is it a red herring? You were talking about infinity and how it can't exist or can't be comprehended.
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29-03-2015, 09:54 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(29-03-2015 11:23 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  There being an infinite amount of something does not prevent you from selecting two points on the scale and moving between them. It actually doesn't take an infinite amount of events to reach event X

Nonsense. If the past is eternal, then how many events led to, lets say...the fall of the Soviet Union?? If your answer is a finite number, then that would fail to take into consideration the events that occurred PRIOR to that number, and if your answer is "an infinite amount", then you just contradicted your previous assertion that "It actually doesn't take an infinite amount of events to reach X".

So you are on thin ice, old friend.

(29-03-2015 11:40 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  : event X exists on the timeline somewhere, and thus will occur at the point that the infinite number of events progresses beyond the point of the event preceding event X.

With all due respect, old friend...you fail to realize the nature of infinity. If the past is eternal, then it is impossible for any event to exist on a timeline, because for every event X, there would have to be an infinite number of X's which precedes it. If the event X DOES come to past, then that is saying that infinity has been successfully traversed, which would be like successfully counting (traversing) all of the numbers in the number set...it can't happen.

(29-03-2015 11:40 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  The only way you can say it's impossible to reach event X is to not put event X anywhere on the timeline so that it's always in the future, but that's the same thing as saying event X doesn't happen.

Ok, let me put it this way; lets say you place a point anywhere on a timeline as event X, and there are points to the left of timeline which represents the points which preceded event X (which is traced infinitely into the past)..and there are points to the right of event X which represents points which succeeds point X (which is traced infinitely into the future). Follow me?

Now, if we imagine that the events to the left of event X have been successfully traversed and event X is now reached, and we STOP at event X. Follow me?

Now lets say we want to travel into the future (right side of event X), and we want to travel EQUAL distance into the future that we traveled to arrive at event X from the past, and we want to STOP at the point once we've reached the distance...and we begin..........tell me this, what point would we stop at???

See, now you have a BIG problem, because any point that we stop would represent a finite number (point), so we will never arrive at any discrete point...but we should be able to if event X was ever reached in the first place!!!

(29-03-2015 11:40 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  All you need to do is do what you'd literally need to do for events, which is give them a concrete duration rather than constantly moving the goalposts. For example, say event X is the third Thursday from this conversation, and this conversation takes place on a Sunday. There might be an infinity of events in the future, but I am still capable of measuring out the three and a half weeks of time between the present and that third Thursday, and when I get to that Thursday, I've gotten to event X.

Ummmmm Esqualix...the reason you will get to event X is because you have two discrete points of reference, and there is finite distance between the two. That is a very false analogy, since you are giving an example at which there are two reference points, point A, and point B...but the actual scenario is a situation where there is only one reference point...event X, but there is no reference point to event X, since the past is eternal and there is no relative point to be found in an infinite past.

(29-03-2015 11:40 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  Your argument only works if you fail to specify what, exactly, event X is supposed to be. Rolleyes

This guy thinks he is doing soooo well Laugh out load

(29-03-2015 11:40 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  The moment you actually place the man on the road, then there is a finite, measurable distance between me and the man, that can be traversed, regardless of the infinite nature of the road we're on. The only possible ways that I could walk an infinite number of steps toward the man is if he either is not on the road, or if he's constantly moving at exactly the same rate of speed that I am.

Right!! So you realize that infinity cannot be reached as a destination, yet if the past is eternal, that is EXACTLY what happened.

(29-03-2015 11:40 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  Because otherwise, you're asking us to envision an infinite length, with two positions picked out along it, and regardless of the infinity of the length, those two points have a measurable distance between them.

Well yeah, I was only trying to demonstrate that it is impossible to "reach" infinity. It wasn't the best analogy in the world Laugh out load
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29-03-2015, 09:57 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(29-03-2015 09:15 PM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  How is it a red herring? You were talking about infinity and how it can't exist or can't be comprehended.

He said that to distract me from the real problem...his ignorance.
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