Outside of Space and Time
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30-03-2015, 11:58 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(30-03-2015 09:27 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  How is this a relevant question? What are you even seeking to demonstrate here?

You said that even if the timeline is infinite in both directions, there can still be points on the timeline, correct?

So, if you were jogging on an infinitely long road, and you were jogging for an infinitely long time...follow me? As you are running, you see me on the road and I stop you, and I say "Esquilax, I want you to turn around and run the opposite direction, and once you've reached EQUAL distance running back that you've reached running forward (at our current point/location), I want you to stop".

When would you stop???

(30-03-2015 09:27 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  And again, why does a symmetric distance into the future from event X matter in terms of the thing you're trying (failing) to demonstrate?

Because it is meant to demonstrate the absurdity of infinity. I mean seriously, think about it. You should be able to travel equal distance into the future and arrive at a specified point, correct? What is stopping you? Laugh out load

Can't answer, can you?

(30-03-2015 09:27 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  Not if you have an infinite amount of time in order for those events to occur, which you demonstrably would need, with an infinite amount of events.

See, what you are saying is "if you have an infinite amount of time, you will eventually get there", which can't be true.

That is like saying; "The house needs an infinite number of bricks to be laid before it can be a complete house"....so for every brick that is layed, there is an infinite amount of more bricks to be laid...so it doesn't matter how long or how many bricks are laid, the house will never ever get anywhere near completion.

(30-03-2015 09:27 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  To be clear, event X is not some separate event everyone is waiting for, it's one more part of the infinite set; if you had the resources to map out an infinite series of events individually, event X would fall somewhere on that timeline, and therefore sometime in the infinite length of time, it would elapse.

Not so fast, old friend. Infinity cannot be reached as a destination, because if it could, then count to infinity and let me know once you've reached infinity. If you are saying event X can come to past, then that would be the same as saying that the event of YOU counting to infinity has come to past, since the events preceding event X is an infinite set, in itself.

(30-03-2015 09:27 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  You would have an infinite number of events preceding it, and that's hard for humans to wrap their brains around

Because it can't happen, thats why it is hard to wrap our brains around it Laugh out load

(30-03-2015 09:27 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  but that doesn't mean that time stops working as an inexorably flowing forward thing. You just don't have enough time to sit there and watch it happen, but your impatience and inability to comprehend the bounds of your own hypothetical, aren't arguments against this.

Time is flowing forward, but it isn't flowing forward from an eternal past...and not having the "time to sit there and watch it happen" has nothing to do with anything..because even if I could, it STILL couldn't happen.

(30-03-2015 09:27 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  And you end with your usual unfounded assertion. How did you come to the conclusion that it's the christian god and not, say, Chronos the Time Mechanic?

Well, as long as Chronos the Time Mechanic created the universe, life, consciousness, and is the standard for objective morality, then Chronos the Time Mechanic can be A.KA....God.

(30-03-2015 09:27 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  Or a mirror universe where time flows backwards, leading to it going from big crunch to big bang and back again in a- yes- infinite cycle?

You can postulate any nonsensical thing you want to, the question is then, where is the evidence for it?? Ahh, different story then, huh?

(30-03-2015 09:27 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  Oh, you didn't come to that conclusion, I forgot. You just presupposed it. Rolleyes

I am appealing to the best explanation, and of all the evidence that has been presented to me, the most compelling is the God Hypothesis. So I am going where the evidence takes me.
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30-03-2015, 12:03 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(30-03-2015 11:29 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(30-03-2015 11:09 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Kind of like if you are at the 40 yard line on a football field...and I asked you to travel equal distance forward that you traveled to reach the 40 yard line. Equal distance = 40 yards...so traveling equal distance (40 yards) will get you to the 80 yard line, wouldn't it?

So it's not just mathematics -- you don't know anything about football either. There is no 80 yard line.

Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

It may not be an 80 yard line...but since the field is about 100 yards long, then guess what, there is at least 80 yards on the field Laugh out load
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30-03-2015, 12:08 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(30-03-2015 11:30 AM)daniel1948 Wrote:  Oh my gosh, C of the W has time to post in this thread too??? I didn't think he'd have any time left after spending so much time in that other thread.

I go where the work takes me Cool

(30-03-2015 11:30 AM)daniel1948 Wrote:  Well, it is kind of amusing to see someone who knows zero about physics or math arguing about space and time.

Yeah, considering everyone else is so smart, and Call is so dumb, right?

(30-03-2015 11:30 AM)daniel1948 Wrote:  3. "I don't care about science. Science is just voodoo."

We can either call it voodoo, or we can just call it "magic without a magician".
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30-03-2015, 12:10 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(30-03-2015 11:18 AM)Esquilax Wrote:  It is worth noting, rather humorously, that any action god takes within his timeless whatever can be measured in demarcations of, yes, you guessed it, time. Something being timeless and yet performing any action, thought, or even just existing, is impossible, as the moment a thing exists, that existence can be measured by time.

Nonsense. The actions were performed in time....and existence doesn't necessarily have to be in time.
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30-03-2015, 12:27 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(30-03-2015 11:58 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  You said that even if the timeline is infinite in both directions, there can still be points on the timeline, correct?

So, if you were jogging on an infinitely long road, and you were jogging for an infinitely long time...follow me? As you are running, you see me on the road and I stop you, and I say "Esquilax, I want you to turn around and run the opposite direction, and once you've reached EQUAL distance running back that you've reached running forward (at our current point/location), I want you to stop".

When would you stop???

...Um, dude? The moment I stop running and turn around, I am no longer running for an infinitely long time, and the analogy falls apart. If I stop doing X thing, where X thing is supposed to be infinite, for any reason, then X thing is no longer infinite and becomes finite. If I'm jogging on an infinitely long road for an infinitely long time, and you stop me and tell me to turn around, then I am now running on an infinitely long road for a finite length of time, because I've stopped, and infinity can have no boundaries like that. Since I've now been running for a finite length of time, I can also calculate the similarly finite distance that I've run, and I can go back an equal distance in the opposite direction.

This is what I'm talking about: the moment you place something on an infinite timeline it becomes measurable even if the timeline itself is not.

Quote:Because it is meant to demonstrate the absurdity of infinity. I mean seriously, think about it. You should be able to travel equal distance into the future and arrive at a specified point, correct? What is stopping you? Laugh out load

Can't answer, can you?

I did, above, which makes your smug arrogance all the more amusing. Rolleyes

Quote:See, what you are saying is "if you have an infinite amount of time, you will eventually get there", which can't be true.

That is like saying; "The house needs an infinite number of bricks to be laid before it can be a complete house"....so for every brick that is layed, there is an infinite amount of more bricks to be laid...so it doesn't matter how long or how many bricks are laid, the house will never ever get anywhere near completion.

You keep doing this, where you equivocate between infinity as an actual state, and infinity as a concept; the latter is not a number and so cannot be used as a measure of something, whereas an actual infinity can still have discrete demarcations imposed upon it, and thus can be measured in terms of appropriate landmarks on it. In an actual infinity I can still measure hours, days, weeks and so on. But the conceptual infinity is so vague as to be useless, and that is the infinity you're referring to when you make your impossible analogies, whereas an actual infinity with realistic behavior can be answered for easily, as seen in the analogies I can answer, simply by expecting them to act like things act.

Quote:Not so fast, old friend. Infinity cannot be reached as a destination, because if it could, then count to infinity and let me know once you've reached infinity. If you are saying event X can come to past, then that would be the same as saying that the event of YOU counting to infinity has come to past, since the events preceding event X is an infinite set, in itself.

We're not trying to get to infinity, we're trying to get to event X. Infinity is infinite, but the length of time to event X is not; all that's required is that the point after event X never hit a stopping point, and the problem is a non issue. All I'm saying is that so long as event X actually exists on the infinite timeline, then it is an event that can be reached given a sufficient length of time.

What you are doing, is proposing that we don't place event X anywhere on the timeline at all, so that it constantly has an infinite possibility space, which is a completely unfair way to conduct this analogy. It's challenging us to reach event X, and then simultaneously ensuring that event X occurs nowhere within the analogy, simply by fiat.

Quote:Well, as long as Chronos the Time Mechanic created the universe, life, consciousness, and is the standard for objective morality, then Chronos the Time Mechanic can be A.KA....God.

Oh, so now you're adding a whole bunch of extra assertions that have nothing to do with what we were talking about, just to bend over backwards to reach your unfair presupposition. Gee, one can't possibly glean your purposes from having this conversation here from that. Rolleyes

Quote:You can postulate any nonsensical thing you want to, the question is then, where is the evidence for it?? Ahh, different story then, huh?

Where the fuck is the evidence for god, you loon? Dodgy

Quote:I am appealing to the best explanation, and of all the evidence that has been presented to me, the most compelling is the God Hypothesis. So I am going where the evidence takes me.

Magic is not the best explanation. Magic is a panacea, and since you have no evidence at all, you have absolutely no method by which you can determine what sort of an explanation the one you're using is, period.

Quote: Nonsense. The actions were performed in time....and existence doesn't necessarily have to be in time.

Existence doesn't happen in time? So if god clapped his hands together, you're saying that it would be impossible for me to time them? If he said something, I wouldn't be able to count the seconds it takes him to finish?

Or are you just talking out your ass again? Dodgy
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30-03-2015, 12:54 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(30-03-2015 12:03 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(30-03-2015 11:29 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  So it's not just mathematics -- you don't know anything about football either. There is no 80 yard line.

Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

It may not be an 80 yard line...but since the field is about 100 yards long, then guess what, there is at least 80 yards on the field Laugh out load

The point is that you are continually using analogies that you obviously don't understand. You don't understand the theory of evolution, you don't understand science in general, you don't understand mathematics, you think the brain is made of cartilage, and you think a football field has an 80 yard line. You clearly don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about. Why should we pay any attention to anything you say?
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30-03-2015, 04:29 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-05-2012 08:52 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  What exists outside of space and time? Is it possible to be "located" within an area devoid of locations? How does cause and effect work outside of time?

I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows. We can guess, but that's the best we can do. Nobody has ever observed a world without space or without time, so we don't have observational evidence. Any scientific test we run will be within both space and time, so there's no way to separate those variables and figure out what would happen without them. We'll just never be sure what a lack of space and time entails.

This is why I find it so laughable that Christians love to posit that God exists outside of space and time, and then tell us what He is capable of doing there. They didn't get this revelation from the bible because it not only doesn't use the phrase "outside of space and time", but it doesn't even suggest that this is true of God. Nor should we expect it to... Einstein figured out that space and time were not constants, and the world of human knowledge had a mistaken view of them for its entirety until Einstein developed his theory. The book of Genesis doesn't have an account of the creation of time because the writers of the book didn't realize that it needed a creation account, but we know now that the concept of "days" is not fixed and required the creation of time before Day 1 of creation. This is why God is now seen as necessarily existing outside of space and time, although there's no reason to posit a plane that lacks space or time simply because it's necessary to explain God... this plane likely doesn't exist, and God is vacationing there in mutual non-existence.

Holy fuck, my mind just exploded. You just took the philosophical, merged it with the physical and made it into one huge bong hit !Bowing

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31-03-2015, 06:48 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  ...Um, dude? The moment I stop running and turn around, I am no longer running for an infinitely long time, and the analogy falls apart. If I stop doing X thing, where X thing is supposed to be infinite, for any reason, then X thing is no longer infinite and becomes finite. If I'm jogging on an infinitely long road for an infinitely long time, and you stop me and tell me to turn around, then I am now running on an infinitely long road for a finite length of time, because I've stopped, and infinity can have no boundaries like that. Since I've now been running for a finite length of time, I can also calculate the similarly finite distance that I've run, and I can go back an equal distance in the opposite direction.

This is what I'm talking about: the moment you place something on an infinite timeline it becomes measurable even if the timeline itself is not.

The thing you have to realize about CotW is that he doesn't really understand concepts like infinity or causality, but that doesn't mean he won't stop talking about them. Everything he says is to rationalize his incoherent world view about the "first cause". He starts with an assumption and then runs to crazy town with it, because that's apparently easier than introspection.

He's like our very own SnowTracks.
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31-03-2015, 06:51 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(31-03-2015 06:48 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  He's like our very own SnowTracks.

But without his charm. Drinking Beverage

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-03-2015, 10:35 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  ...Um, dude? The moment I stop running and turn around, I am no longer running for an infinitely long time, and the analogy falls apart.

Dude, what does you stopping on the road and turning around and running the opposite direction have anything to do with whether or not you can run equal distance the opposition direction?? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

You are just talking out of your ass now.

(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  [/i] If I stop doing X thing, where X thing is supposed to be infinite, for any reason, then X thing is no longer infinite and becomes finite.

BULLSHIT. The road itself doesn't stop being infinitely long just because you stopped running on it, and you stopping on the road doesn't take away from the fact that you had previously been running for an infinitely long time on it.

You stopping on the road doesn't change a damn thing. Again, you are just talking out of your ass now.

(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  If I'm jogging on an infinitely long road for an infinitely long time, and you stop me and tell me to turn around, then I am now running on an infinitely long road for a finite length of time, because I've stopped, and infinity can have no boundaries like that. Since I've now been running for a finite length of time, I can also calculate the similarly finite distance that I've run, and I can go back an equal distance in the opposite direction.

Dudeee that has no relevance whatsoever. Even if you jogged in place and THEN turned around, or if you were jogging and turned around to run in the opposite direction...all while continuously running...the same thing will apply. It doesn't matter if you stopped running, slowed your pace, ran faster, or walked. It doesn't freakin matter....you still should be able to re-trace your steps in the opposite direction by running equal distance, and you should be able to stop at a specified point once you've reached that distance, IF infinity is a rational concept.

All of this nonsense wiggle crap you are doing is...rather pathetic.

(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  This is what I'm talking about: the moment you place something on an infinite timeline it becomes measurable even if the timeline itself is not.

Actually, it doesn't. But I will leave you to your absurdities.

(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  I did, above, which makes your smug arrogance all the more amusing. Rolleyes

You should have just stayed wherever you was, pimp. Yes

(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  You keep doing this, where you equivocate between infinity as an actual state, and infinity as a concept; the latter is not a number and so cannot be used as a measure of something, whereas an actual infinity can still have discrete demarcations imposed upon it, and thus can be measured in terms of appropriate landmarks on it. In an actual infinity I can still measure hours, days, weeks and so on. But the conceptual infinity is so vague as to be useless, and that is the infinity you're referring to when you make your impossible analogies, whereas an actual infinity with realistic behavior can be answered for easily, as seen in the analogies I can answer, simply by expecting them to act like things act.

With all due respect, the only thing you've done is show your ignorance regarding infinity. But you are right on one thing, infinity is a concept, but once you apply that concept to reality, things tend to get absurd.

For example, above you mentioned hours, days, weeks, so on...but if the past is eternal...there is an infinite amount of days, hours, weeks, months, years, minutes, seconds, decades, centuries, milleniums....there are an infinite amount of ALL these things, DESPITE each of those time measurements having different quantities!!!!

If you don't see the absurdity in that, then I can't help you.

(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  We're not trying to get to infinity, we're trying to get to event X.

Right!!! But the events which lead to event X, that is an infinite set...that set itself is infinite, because there were an infinite number of events which lead to it..in order for event X to come to past, that would be like counting down all of the numbers in the number set, and arriving at the #1. It can't happen.

(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  Infinity is infinite, but the length of time to event X is not; all that's required is that the point after event X never hit a stopping point, and the problem is a non issue. All I'm saying is that so long as event X actually exists on the infinite timeline, then it is an event that can be reached given a sufficient length of time.

If you were counting for an infinite amount of time, and you suddenly took a break, that doesn't negate the fact that the "set" from the preceding numbers and the finite number that you stopped at...that doesn't change the fact that this "set" is infinite...nor does it change the fact that this is an infinite "set" within the infinite "set" of all the numbers on the number scale.

So it is an infinite "set" within an infinite set...that is complete and utter nonsense.

(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  What you are doing, is proposing that we don't place event X anywhere on the timeline at all, so that it constantly has an infinite possibility space, which is a completely unfair way to conduct this analogy. It's challenging us to reach event X, and then simultaneously ensuring that event X occurs nowhere within the analogy, simply by fiat.

No, I am not "proposing that we don't place event X anywhere on the timeline at all". How in the hell do you even draw that conclusion, when my entire analogy DEPENDS upon an event X??

Makes no sense.

(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  Oh, so now you're adding a whole bunch of extra assertions that have nothing to do with what we were talking about, just to bend over backwards to reach your unfair presupposition.

Neither did your "Time-Man" superhero character mechanic.

(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  Where the fuck is the evidence for god, you loon? Dodgy

Where is the scientific evidence that life arose from nonliving material, and that consciousness originated from unconsciousness, and that the universe came from nothing, and that morality came from natural selection.

Where the fuck is that evidence?

(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  Magic is not the best explanation. Magic is a panacea, and since you have no evidence at all, you have absolutely no method by which you can determine what sort of an explanation the one you're using is, period.

Let me let you in on a secret..don't tell nobody, ok? The scret is: A reptile transforming into a bird...that is magic, buddy.

(30-03-2015 12:27 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  Existence doesn't happen in time? So if god clapped his hands together, you're saying that it would be impossible for me to time them? If he said something, I wouldn't be able to count the seconds it takes him to finish?

Unfortunately, sometimes I have to freakin' REPEAT myself sometimes to different people, and I really don't feel like doing it here. But, I will put it to you this way...there isn't one objection that you can make that I haven't heard before, nor is there one objection that hasn't already been answered.

Perhaps one day I can educate you on what it meant for God to be a timeless cause, or maybe one of your friends on here can tell you...you know, one of the ones that has already been educated.
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