Outside of Space and Time
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31-03-2015, 10:45 AM (This post was last modified: 31-03-2015 10:50 AM by Alex K.)
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(31-03-2015 10:35 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Where is the scientific evidence that life arose from nonliving material,
To quote Haldane: But Madam, you did it yourself! And it only took nine months.
But seriously, we are made of nonliving material, that's so obvious it's barely worth saying. It's almost by definition that it arises from nonliving material, or otherwise it would not have arisen in that instant. What else should it arise from?
Quote: and that consciousness originated from unconsciousness,
Where have I seen this discussion before, Esq... Tongue
That statement doesn't really make sense though, to originate from unconsciousness, what is that supposed to mean.
But you should distinctly remember nothing from before you were born, which should give you a hint. You can fall into a coma and be unconscious. As soon as you disturb brain activity, consciousness is gone. Absence of consciousness seems to be the default state unless very specific conditions are met.
Quote:and that the universe came from nothing,
It very much depends on what you mean by nothing. Generally, we don't know whether that's true. Personally I don't think it's something that should be repeated. Shame on you, Lawrence Krauss Smile
Quote:and that morality came from natural selection.
We have evidence for evolution from natural selection, so take that as a given. Within that framework, there are many plausible mechanisms how morality would arise in a social species almost by necessity. One can argue how adaptionist one should be about all the minutiae of psychology of course, and some things might just be accidental by-products.
Quote:Where the fuck is that evidence?
Here, have a cookie

Quantum Physics: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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31-03-2015, 10:51 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(30-03-2015 12:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  The point is that you are continually using analogies that you obviously don't understand.

If I didn't understand them, I wouldn't have used them. It is YOU people that don't understand them, because if you did, I wouldn't see all of these pathetic objections to them.

(30-03-2015 12:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You don't understand the theory of evolution

I don't understand how a reptile can change into a bird, no...I don't.

(30-03-2015 12:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  you don't understand science in general

Science hasn't explained to me how life can come from nonliving material, how consciousness can come from unconsciousness, how morality can come from natural selection, and how the universe can come from nothing.

Those that so called "understand" science can't even explain these things Laugh out load

(30-03-2015 12:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  you don't understand mathematics

The stuff that I don't understand is vastly more than the stuff that you DO understand.

(30-03-2015 12:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  you think the brain is made of cartilage

Not a problem...since the argument from consciousness is not dependent upon what the brain is made up of. It is irrelevant.

(30-03-2015 12:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  and you think a football field has an 80 yard line.

Again, if there are 100 yards on the field, then there is at least 80. So again, it is irrelevant as to whether there is an 80 yard line...the only thing needed for my analogy to work is for there to be at least 80 yards on the field, which there is.

So again, irrelevant.

(30-03-2015 12:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You clearly don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.

And everyone else does??? Of course!!! Everyone else are atheists...so apparently, that makes you smart by default!!!

Mannn please. Take that nonsense somewhere else.

(30-03-2015 12:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Why should we pay any attention to anything you say?

You don't have to. There are plenty other posters you can waste your time and efforts on...yet, you are wasting it on me???

Sounds like a personal problem.
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31-03-2015, 10:54 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(31-03-2015 10:51 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  The stuff that I don't understand is vastly more than the stuff that you DO understand.

Teehee. I'm tempted to put that in my sig.

Quantum Physics: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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31-03-2015, 11:13 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(31-03-2015 10:45 AM)Alex K Wrote:  But seriously, we are made of nonliving material, that's so obvious it's barely worth saying.

Ahhh, but who is "we"...is "we" our bodies, or our minds? Where did our consciousness come from? If you believe it came from nonliving material, then please show some evidence. It should be explained by science, right?

I don't know how you guys think that you get to make these claims of knowledge and not have to present any evidence, but then once a theist does the same thing, there is this cry of "show me the evidence". No, YOU show me YOUR evidence.

(31-03-2015 10:45 AM)Alex K Wrote:  It's almost by definition that it arises from nonliving material, or otherwise it would not have arisen in that instant. What else should it arise from?

Dude, there is this entity called "God". You know, the "G" word that makes you shiver?

(31-03-2015 10:45 AM)Alex K Wrote:  That statement doesn't really make sense though, to originate from unconsciousness, what is that supposed to mean.

It is quite freakin' simple, actually. Nature is a mindless and blind process, and if God doesn't exist, we owe our existence to a mindless and blind process...plain and simple...so things like consciousness/life had to have originated from a nonlife, and unconsciousness.

Lets not play the "I can't answer the question, so its time to act dumb by asking dumb ass questions to play ignorant", lets not play that game.

(31-03-2015 10:45 AM)Alex K Wrote:  But you should distinctly remember nothing from before you were born, which should give you a hint. You can fall into a coma and be unconscious. As soon as you disturb brain activity, consciousness is gone. Absence of consciousness seems to be the default state unless very specific conditions are met.

Dude, humans owe their immediate existence from their parents, who are living beings. WTF???

(31-03-2015 10:45 AM)Alex K Wrote:  We have evidence for evolution from natural selection, so take that as a given. Within that framework, there are many plausible mechanisms how morality would arise in a social species almost by necessity. One can argue how adaptionist one should be about all the minutiae of psychology of course, and some things might just be accidental by-products.

Cart before the horse fallacy. I need a step by step process of how life originated instead of conveniently jumping the gun right to evolution and natural selection...if you can't explain how life got here by natural processes, then you don't have a theory.
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31-03-2015, 11:15 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(31-03-2015 10:51 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Science hasn't explained to me how life can come from nonliving material,
Neither has religion. "God did it" isn't an explanation. How did he do it? What energy/stuff did he use? What was the process? etc... If you answer "I don't know", then you're being two faced. I don't know is ok for religion but not for science?
(31-03-2015 10:51 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  ...how morality can come from natural selection,
Morality is a human concept, not a 'thing' unto itself.
(31-03-2015 10:51 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  ....and how the universe can come from nothing.
The possibility that it came from nothing is one of a few possibilities. But you guys are the ones I only really ever hear hammering that idea. Most ideas I hear, from science, doesn't say it 'came from nothing', but from a previous and different state.
And again, religion doesn't explain it either. What did God create the universe from? There must have been some other 'stuff' since it's impossible, according to you, that it came from 'nothing'.

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31-03-2015, 11:46 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(31-03-2015 10:35 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Dude, what does you stopping on the road and turning around and running the opposite direction have anything to do with whether or not you can run equal distance the opposition direction?? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

Everything, given the purpose of your analogy. You specified that I was running for an infinite length of time, your whole analogy hinged on the impossibility of determining an equal, reversed distance because it too would be infinite, so pointing out that if one stops something he isn't doing it infinitely is really rather important. I can't be running infinitely if I stop and turn around to go an equal distance back the other way, and therefore I'd easily be able to determine and run an equal distance back.

You specifically said that I couldn't answer this problem, and I did.

Quote:You are just talking out of your ass now.

No, you just don't understand your own problem, apparently. Rolleyes

Quote:BULLSHIT. The road itself doesn't stop being infinitely long just because you stopped running on it, and you stopping on the road doesn't take away from the fact that you had previously been running for an infinitely long time on it.

...Do you... do you seriously not see the inherent contradiction in the phrase "I'm running for an infinitely long time, but then I stopped."? Infinitely means that I perform the action without end, if I end the action, I am no longer doing it infinitely, because there's a clear stopping point.

Quote:Dudeee that has no relevance whatsoever. Even if you jogged in place and THEN turned around, or if you were jogging and turned around to run in the opposite direction...all while continuously running...the same thing will apply. It doesn't matter if you stopped running, slowed your pace, ran faster, or walked. It doesn't freakin matter....you still should be able to re-trace your steps in the opposite direction by running equal distance, and you should be able to stop at a specified point once you've reached that distance, IF infinity is a rational concept.

The road may be infinite, but my running on it is not, as the moment I stopped gives us an end point by which to time exactly how long I've been running. Now, I must have started running at some point on the road... here, let me show you, since you're apparently incapable of imagining simple things like lines.

/---------------------------------------------------/

The road is infinite. I started running at some point along it, say the leftmost line, and that's an inescapable fact of existence; I need to exist on the road, which means despite its infinite length, I need to be placed at some point along it, which is measurable physically despite the immeasurability of the road. The point at which I stop running and turn around is the rightmost point, and though the road is infinite, the distance between those two points, which is what we care about, is not. It's a finite length, it simply has to be, by the laws of physical space.

Your analogy only works if you refuse to actually think of the road as a real place, which is kinda hard to do when considering it requires that we do.

Quote:All of this nonsense wiggle crap you are doing is...rather pathetic.

So, did they kick you out of school before you learned about lines and how to measure them?

Quote:Actually, it doesn't. But I will leave you to your absurdities.

You have an infinite road. You place a three inch by three inch cube somewhere on that road. You now have a measurable portion of that infinite road via the dimensions of the cube, plus a landmark by which you can measure distances on the road. Or are you seriously saying that the moment I put anything on an infinite road, it ceases to have physical dimensions? Dodgy

Quote:With all due respect, the only thing you've done is show your ignorance regarding infinity.

Says the guy who thinks infinity can have an end. Rolleyes

Quote:But you are right on one thing, infinity is a concept, but once you apply that concept to reality, things tend to get absurd.

If you're going to posit all these hypotheticals, then you have to consider infinity as a real thing, which is what you refuse to do. You're handicapping us with your own ignorance.

Quote:For example, above you mentioned hours, days, weeks, so on...but if the past is eternal...there is an infinite amount of days, hours, weeks, months, years, minutes, seconds, decades, centuries, milleniums....there are an infinite amount of ALL these things, DESPITE each of those time measurements having different quantities!!!!

Sure there's an infinite amount. But that doesn't stop us from selecting a point on the scale and measuring those time measurements from that point. Time keeps going forward regardless of whether it ends or not; an infinite amount of time allows for every event to elapse, by definition.

Quote:If you were counting for an infinite amount of time, and you suddenly took a break, that doesn't negate the fact that the "set" from the preceding numbers and the finite number that you stopped at...that doesn't change the fact that this "set" is infinite...nor does it change the fact that this is an infinite "set" within the infinite "set" of all the numbers on the number scale.

So it is an infinite "set" within an infinite set...that is complete and utter nonsense.

So now you're saying that something infinite also has limits with regards to what it can contain? You're not really familiar with what "infinite" means, are you?

Quote:No, I am not "proposing that we don't place event X anywhere on the timeline at all". How in the hell do you even draw that conclusion, when my entire analogy DEPENDS upon an event X??

Makes no sense.

If you place event X on the timeline, then event X can be reached, given an infinite amount of time. The only way to avoid reaching event X is to either not place it on the timeline, or to not allow for an infinite amount of time, which is nonsensical when you're positing an infinite number of events.

Quote:Neither did your "Time-Man" superhero character mechanic.

That was to illustrate that "timeless" does not equal god, and you have a lot of heavy lifting before you get to the point where you can safely say that it's god. Also, it shows that both concepts have the same amount of evidence in favor of them, yet one of them was made up on the spot; there are implications for your god character, in there.

Quote:Where is the scientific evidence that life arose from nonliving material, and that consciousness originated from unconsciousness, and that the universe came from nothing, and that morality came from natural selection.

Miller-Urey, John Oros, the mountains of experimentation that shows empathy naturally arising in animals, and I don't believe the universe came from nothing.

Quote:Where the fuck is that evidence?

See above, though I do find it odd that you'll ask for scientific evidence while simultaneously deriding science as "voodoo." I suspect that you'll do that with all science that doesn't already agree with you. Dodgy

Quote:Let me let you in on a secret..don't tell nobody, ok? The scret is: A reptile transforming into a bird...that is magic, buddy.

Not if it happens via well understood genetic principles that we can observe easily... which it does. Your ignorance regarding the process does not make it magic, but it does make you ignorant.

Quote:Unfortunately, sometimes I have to freakin' REPEAT myself sometimes to different people, and I really don't feel like doing it here. But, I will put it to you this way...there isn't one objection that you can make that I haven't heard before, nor is there one objection that hasn't already been answered.

Perhaps one day I can educate you on what it meant for God to be a timeless cause, or maybe one of your friends on here can tell you...you know, one of the ones that has already been educated.

"I'm not gonna say why, but just pretend I said something that perfectly rebutted you, because I totally could!" Rolleyes
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31-03-2015, 11:51 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(31-03-2015 10:51 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(30-03-2015 12:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  You don't understand the theory of evolution

I don't understand how a reptile can change into a bird, no...I don't.
If a reptile changed into a bird or even if a reptile laid a bird egg then this event would disprove evolution.
It would be a miraculous event more along the lines of creationism.

If creationism is true we don't know whether the bird is zapped into existence from nothing, just an abra cadabra <poof> there it is moment, or if a reptile morphs into one, lizard walks around then abra cadabra <poof> lizards morphs into bird.
Where is the documented theory of creationism? How does the mechanism of new species work? Where is the evidence supporting that?
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31-03-2015, 12:12 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(31-03-2015 10:51 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(30-03-2015 12:54 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  The point is that you are continually using analogies that you obviously don't understand.

If I didn't understand them, I wouldn't have used them. It is YOU people that don't understand them, because if you did, I wouldn't see all of these pathetic objections to them.

Nobody who has watched more than one or two football games would ever say (or write) "80 yard line". You clearly are not familiar with the game of football. And nobody who has ever studied biology would make a statement like "the brain is made of cartilage". Also, the fact that there are infinitely many numbers between 0 and 10 does not prevent someone from getting from 0 to 10. Achilles does catch the tortoise. Even Zeno knew that. So you have never studied mathematics either. You display your ignorance every time you post.

What if I went to a Christian forum and referred to "the Gospel according to Matthew, which you can find in the Q'uran" or "the plastic cross that Jesus was crucified on"? Do you think anyone on the forum would take me seriously? That is exactly how you sound to us.
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31-03-2015, 02:51 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(31-03-2015 11:15 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  Neither has religion. "God did it" isn't an explanation. How did he do it? What energy/stuff did he use? What was the process? etc... If you answer "I don't know", then you're being two faced. I don't know is ok for religion but not for science?

You are right, but since I look as the human body as an obvious design, I have to ask myself what seems more reasonable...for a mindless/blind process to assemble human bodies...or, an intelligent designer to assemble human bodies?

To me, it makes more sense to conclude intelligent design, especially since I know other things, like automobiles, aircraft, computers, televisions...all of these things were intelligently designed...so how much more should an entire human body....FROM SCRATCH???

(31-03-2015 11:15 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  Morality is a human concept, not a 'thing' unto itself.

It is more than a concept...it is a "thing" which manifests itself in reality...and the question is, where did it come from?

(31-03-2015 11:15 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  The possibility that it came from nothing is one of a few possibilities. But you guys are the ones I only really ever hear hammering that idea. Most ideas I hear, from science, doesn't say it 'came from nothing', but from a previous and different state.

I have two words for you; "Lawrence"...and "Krauss".

(31-03-2015 11:15 AM)LostLocke Wrote:  And again, religion doesn't explain it either. What did God create the universe from? There must have been some other 'stuff' since it's impossible, according to you, that it came from 'nothing'.

It did come from something....it came from God...and God is something.
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31-03-2015, 02:55 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(31-03-2015 11:13 AM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(31-03-2015 10:45 AM)Alex K Wrote:  But seriously, we are made of nonliving material, that's so obvious it's barely worth saying.

Ahhh, but who is "we"...is "we" our bodies, or our minds? Where did our consciousness come from? If you believe it came from nonliving material, then please show some evidence. It should be explained by science, right?

I don't know how you guys think that you get to make these claims of knowledge and not have to present any evidence, but then once a theist does the same thing, there is this cry of "show me the evidence". No, YOU show me YOUR evidence.

(31-03-2015 10:45 AM)Alex K Wrote:  It's almost by definition that it arises from nonliving material, or otherwise it would not have arisen in that instant. What else should it arise from?

Dude, there is this entity called "God". You know, the "G" word that makes you shiver?
It doesn't really make me shiver. In fact, I grew up mainstream protestant, and then simply grew tired of it.

But to address your statement - are you implying we are made of God material? That's silly. We are made of nonliving material which got incorporated into our body in its entirety in a traceable way from the air and the food we and our parents ate.
Quote:
(31-03-2015 10:45 AM)Alex K Wrote:  That statement doesn't really make sense though, to originate from unconsciousness, what is that supposed to mean.

It is quite freakin' simple, actually. Nature is a mindless and blind process, and if God doesn't exist, we owe our existence to a mindless and blind process...plain and simple...so things like consciousness/life had to have originated from a nonlife, and unconsciousness.
It just wasn't worded very precisely.
Quote:Lets not play the "I can't answer the question, so its time to act dumb by asking dumb ass questions to play ignorant", lets not play that game.
Then try to be a bit more precise in your questions
Quote:
(31-03-2015 10:45 AM)Alex K Wrote:  But you should distinctly remember nothing from before you were born, which should give you a hint. You can fall into a coma and be unconscious. As soon as you disturb brain activity, consciousness is gone. Absence of consciousness seems to be the default state unless very specific conditions are met.

Dude, humans owe their immediate existence from their parents, who are living beings. WTF???
As I said above, the material of which you are made came from the environment in the form of food and air
Quote:
(31-03-2015 10:45 AM)Alex K Wrote:  We have evidence for evolution from natural selection, so take that as a given. Within that framework, there are many plausible mechanisms how morality would arise in a social species almost by necessity. One can argue how adaptionist one should be about all the minutiae of psychology of course, and some things might just be accidental by-products.

Cart before the horse fallacy. I need a step by step process of how life originated instead of conveniently jumping the gun right to evolution and natural selection...if you can't explain how life got here by natural processes, then you don't have a theory.

First of all, that's not how theories work Big Grin
But then, the question you asked was about morals from natural selection, so you've just dishonestly tried to move to goalpost.

Quantum Physics: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
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