Outside of Space and Time
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04-04-2015, 12:31 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-04-2015 08:27 PM)LostLocke Wrote:  Sigh.....
You said we were created 'good' not 'perfect'.
So either he chose not to create us perfect or he can't create us perfect.

Maybe he created us perfect on the one condition that man didn't sin, and once man sinned, thus...second law of thermodynamics.
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04-04-2015, 12:37 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(03-04-2015 06:58 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  Uh, wow. People are still willing to respond to this asshole after I took him to task for misrepresenting our views into easy to debunk strawmen, and he assented that this was what he was doing by using the thumbs up smiley? Undecided

The only thing being misrepresented is your assessment of our exchanges...the day you
"take me to task" on ANYTHING is the day that I ride a pig down hell's frozen mountain top.

Good luck on that "task" thing, old friend Thumbsup
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04-04-2015, 01:04 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2015 01:08 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-04-2015 12:37 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-04-2015 06:58 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  Uh, wow. People are still willing to respond to this asshole after I took him to task for misrepresenting our views into easy to debunk strawmen, and he assented that this was what he was doing by using the thumbs up smiley? Undecided

The only thing being misrepresented is your assessment of our exchanges...the day you
"take me to task" on ANYTHING is the day that I ride a pig down hell's frozen mountain top.

Good luck on that "task" thing, old friend Thumbsup

You have an unusually acute narcissistic obsession with winning. That's not a good thing. It's an indication of a deep-seated inferiority complex.




There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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04-04-2015, 01:36 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-04-2015 12:27 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-04-2015 03:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Scientists have discovered many facts about reproduction, descent, genetics, genetic defects, epigenetics, adaptation, bio-diversity. Evolution ties this altogether. Abiogenesis is a different topic entirely.

Then you are committing the cart before the horse fallacy.
No, to accept evolution you do not have to have an opinion on how Abiogenesis happened.

Even if god created the first life, evolution still happens.

There are many who believe in god and accept the the integrity and robustness of the careful application of the scientific method. These people marvel and are in awe of the process of evolution. Regardless of whether it was designed by a super intelligent deity or was a natural process, Evolution and bio-diversity is a truly marvelous thing. I would think, if you believed god did it, then trying to follow in god's footsteps by learning about evolution, it would give you a greater appreciation for how great your god must be.

A sudden miraculous appearance of fully formed animals is nowhere near as amazing as the autonomous process of evolution.

(04-04-2015 12:27 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-04-2015 03:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  So you accept that evolution might be true?

It might be true if that is what God choose to create stuff with.
All the evidence suggests that evolution is true. You don't have to reject it due to religious belief. You can believe in god and also accept evolution. Evolution does not disprove god.

(04-04-2015 12:27 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-04-2015 03:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Just because nature can do it without god it doesn't mean that your god doesn't put his hand to it if he chooses to.

Huh
I am trying to convey that evolution does not disprove god.

(04-04-2015 12:27 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  GOD CREATED THE UNIVERSE[/size]

Thanks for telling me what naturally happened AFTER God created the universe Laugh out load
You don't find it interesting to observe the finer points of the universe that you believe god created?
If god created the universe with evolution in mind then evolution is his "baby" surely you'd be keen to try and understand it better. If god is the ultimate creator then isn't his creation fascinating to you?


(04-04-2015 12:27 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-04-2015 03:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You can accept evolution and still believe in gods.

If you accept evolution, and still believe in gods, you aren't an atheist, are you?
That's right. You'd still be a Christian and have glory in Jesus and get to live an eternal afterlife. I doubt god would punish you for putting effort into understanding evolution.

(04-04-2015 12:27 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-04-2015 03:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Personally, I think the most compelling evidence is DNA and understanding the tree of life "phylogenetic tree"

DNA is a code, and codes have programmers. Programmers are intelligent. They design things.
Fair point. There is no denying that it appears that DNA has been constructed by an intelligent agent. But an understanding of evolution and genetics will show how this "program" evolves over time without the need for a programmer to re-code it.

(04-04-2015 12:27 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-04-2015 03:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  "You people"?
I have suggested you read some books written by the world's leading scientists in the field of evolutionary biology.

You told me how unqualified Craig is to speak on cosmology, because he ain't a cosmologist, yet, you people speak on biology/evolution all the time on here, and I doubt anyone on here is a biologist.
Most of us will offer references. You know, point you towards books or papers written by the leading scientists in that field. We certainly wouldn't be keen to get up on stage in a public recorded debate and try to tell these leading scientists that they are wrong. That would be stupid.

(04-04-2015 12:27 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-04-2015 03:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  WLC is a philosopher and a professional debater. He is clueless regarding science.

People that are unfamiliar with cosmology don't normally give lectures and answers questions from the audiences regarding cosmological models of the universe.
I have never accused WLC of being normal. He does what he does despite his lack of knowledge on the topics he debates.

(04-04-2015 12:27 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Consciousness is what makes living things "aware" of reality. I am at a loss as to how inanimate matter can become aware of reality Laugh out load
Your own incredulity doesn't help your case. It suggests that perhaps you ought to visit your local library.

(04-04-2015 12:27 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-04-2015 03:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  All species are continually transitioning. They are transitioning onto whatever suits their current environment.

Eskimo's live in extreme cold temperatures, so I guess in a million years they will have grown fur to suit their environment?
Human's have hair, just like many other animals.
Regarding Eskimos, if the less hairy ones die of the cold and hence don't reproduce and the more hairy ones survive and do reproduce then the children will have inherited hairiness from their hairy parents. So, on average the Eskimo children will be hairy.
If, however, Eskimos have worked out a way to keep non hairy Eskimos alive (perhaps by using warm clothing) then there would be no selective pressure to suggest that Eskimos will evolve to be more hairy.


(04-04-2015 12:27 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Question: Does a spirit occupy space?
What is a spirit made of? bosons or fermions?
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04-04-2015, 08:44 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  No, to accept evolution you do not have to have an opinion on how Abiogenesis happened.

Even if god created the first life, evolution still happens.

If God created life, and evolution still happens, then God exists, doesn't he?

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  There are many who believe in god and accept the the integrity and robustness of the careful application of the scientific method.

Then they are not atheists, are they?

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  These people marvel and are in awe of the process of evolution. Regardless of whether it was designed by a super intelligent deity or was a natural process, Evolution and bio-diversity is a truly marvelous thing. I would think, if you believed god did it, then trying to follow in god's footsteps by learning about evolution

God learned about evolution??? Laugh out loadLaugh out loadLaugh out load

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  A sudden miraculous appearance of fully formed animals is nowhere near as amazing as the autonomous process of evolution.

Fully formed animals is what is hurting evolution right now.

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  All the evidence suggests that evolution is true. You don't have to reject it due to religious belief. You can believe in god and also accept evolution. Evolution does not disprove god.

Well, the God that I worship doesn't need a trial and error process to create anything. He got it right the first time.

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I am trying to convey that evolution does not disprove god.

No, it doesn't...but since 99.5% of the forum is filled with atheists, then it is safe to say that these people don't believe in theistic evolution..and that is where we have problems.

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  You don't find it interesting to observe the finer points of the universe that you believe god created?

Not really. Depend on what is being observed. The discovery of another planet, no. The discovery of life on other planets, yes.

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If god created the universe with evolution in mind then evolution is his "baby" surely you'd be keen to try and understand it better. If god is the ultimate creator then isn't his creation fascinating to you?

If I had reasons to believe that God used evolution as a method of his creation, then I would believe in evolution. I have no such reasons, so I don't.

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  That's right. You'd still be a Christian and have glory in Jesus and get to live an eternal afterlife. I doubt god would punish you for putting effort into understanding evolution.

Evolution is a lie, Stevil, and Satan is a master deceiver.

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Fair point. There is no denying that it appears that DNA has been constructed by an intelligent agent. But an understanding of evolution and genetics will show how this "program" evolves over time without the need for a programmer to re-code it.

I am not denying that theistic evolution is impossible...I just don't see the evidence for it.

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Most of us will offer references. You know, point you towards books or papers written by the leading scientists in that field. We certainly wouldn't be keen to get up on stage in a public recorded debate and try to tell these leading scientists that they are wrong. That would be stupid.

They are not wrong with the science, they are wrong in the interpretation of the science. Big difference.

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I have never accused WLC of being normal. He does what he does despite his lack of knowledge on the topics he debates.

In the video I showed, he wasn't debating, he was lecturing and answering questions regarding the lecture...and the lecture was based on the various cosmological models of the past, and present.

So again, I ask you; If a person lacks knowledge in a certain area, why would the person volunteer to lecture on the subject, and answer questions on the subject that they lack knowledge in?

Makes no sense.

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Your own incredulity doesn't help your case. It suggests that perhaps you ought to visit your local library.

Well, I will put it to you this way...the fact that I can't conceive of how inanimate matter suddenly/gradually can become "aware" of reality, followed by there is no evidence that inanimate matter CAN suddenly/gradually become "aware" of reality, that leads me to believe that I am on the right path regarding my disbelief.

Now, if you have some evidence you can throw at me, then by all means...throw.

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Human's have hair, just like many other animals.
Regarding Eskimos, if the less hairy ones die of the cold and hence don't reproduce and the more hairy ones survive and do reproduce then the children will have inherited hairiness from their hairy parents. So, on average the Eskimo children will be hairy.

But wouldn't it be better for survival if present day Eskimos started to grow thick hair over there entire bodies?? That would be better for survival, right?

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If, however, Eskimos have worked out a way to keep non hairy Eskimos alive (perhaps by using warm clothing) then there would be no selective pressure to suggest that Eskimos will evolve to be more hairy.

Ok, but are you saying if they had less than warm clothing, the selective pressure would allow them to grow thick fur in order to survive, right?

(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What is a spirit made of? bosons or fermions?

I don't know, but then again, I don't know what a "mind" is made of either.
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05-04-2015, 01:52 AM (This post was last modified: 05-04-2015 02:11 AM by Stevil.)
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-04-2015 08:44 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  If, however, Eskimos have worked out a way to keep non hairy Eskimos alive (perhaps by using warm clothing) then there would be no selective pressure to suggest that Eskimos will evolve to be more hairy.

Ok, but are you saying if they had less than warm clothing, the selective pressure would allow them to grow thick fur in order to survive, right?
There is always a range based around the "norm" of the day.
If you have a hairy population, some of those people will be less hairy and some more hairy than the average. If the cold weather causes the less hairy ones to die before they procreate then on average the population skews towards the hairier side of this range because the genes producing less hairy people are removed from the population. This means the average shifts more towards the hairy side. The range of this new average is itself more skewed towards the hairy. i.e. It is much less likely with this new population to have some people as less hairy as what the old population had. If this cycle goes on for a few generations or a million generations then it is possible we end up as hairy as the other apes i.e. Chimpanzees.

But us humans have overcome many of the selective pressures because we are now quite good at keeping "weaker" people alive. i.e. with warm clothes, with medicine etc.

(04-04-2015 08:44 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(04-04-2015 01:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  What is a spirit made of? bosons or fermions?

I don't know, but then again, I don't know what a "mind" is made of either.
A mind is a conceptual idea describing to a high level some of the operations of the underlying brain. Essentially a mind is the product of brain matter and neurons and electricity and chemical reactions.
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05-04-2015, 12:14 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-04-2015 12:31 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  
(03-04-2015 08:27 PM)LostLocke Wrote:  Sigh.....
You said we were created 'good' not 'perfect'.
So either he chose not to create us perfect or he can't create us perfect.

Maybe he created us perfect on the one condition that man didn't sin, and once man sinned, thus...second law of thermodynamics.

So basically he created us perfect, just with one imperfection that leads to further imperfections down the line. Can the sophistry: in the context of biblical creation, the capacity to sin is an imperfection.

Quote:The only thing being misrepresented is your assessment of our exchanges...the day you
"take me to task" on ANYTHING is the day that I ride a pig down hell's frozen mountain top.

I accused you of misrepresenting our views on evolution, given that you said that I believed a thing that I demonstrably do not believe, nor does any other evolution-accepting person here, and your response was, and I quote, ":thumbsup:" You're either dodging so you don't have to answer for your strawmen, or you're quite happy misrepresenting our views. Neither option is particularly flattering.
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05-04-2015, 02:13 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(02-04-2015 07:05 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Well, according to the narrative, after creation, God saw that the creation was "good", not perfect.

(04-04-2015 12:31 PM)Call_of_the_Wild Wrote:  Maybe he created us perfect on the one condition that man didn't sin, and once man sinned, thus...second law of thermodynamics.
Wanna give that another shot?

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06-04-2015, 11:23 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(05-04-2015 12:14 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  So basically he created us perfect, just with one imperfection that leads to further imperfections down the line. Can the sophistry: in the context of biblical creation, the capacity to sin is an imperfection.

Good point, Esq...so it goes back to the Bible saying that God created us "good"....and you are right, the capacity to sin ins an imperfection, which is EXACTLY why, when I have my internal debates with my fellow Christ-followers, I use Jesus' lack of sin to demonstrate how Jesus must have been God in the flesh.

Again, good point Thumbsup Bout time Laugh out load

(05-04-2015 12:14 PM)Esquilax Wrote:  I accused you of misrepresenting our views on evolution, given that you said that I believed a thing that I demonstrably do not believe, nor does any other evolution-accepting person here, and your response was, and I quote, ":thumbsup:" You're either dodging so you don't have to answer for your strawmen, or you're quite happy misrepresenting our views. Neither option is particularly flattering.

Ok, so what do you believe regarding evolution, Esq...just cut through the bio-babble and give me a brief summary of what you believe evolution to be.

Of course, I can already predict that it will ultimately lead to what I've been saying all along. But hey, prove me wrong.
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06-04-2015, 11:25 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(05-04-2015 02:13 PM)LostLocke Wrote:  Wanna give that another shot?

Hey, I was just offering defeaters to YOUR points...in which case if either is true, your objection is refuted. Either way, the Bible is clear that God created man with free will, and informed them of the consequences of their disobedience...man choose to disobey, and suffered the consequences. Plain and simple.
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