Outside of Space and Time
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
13-05-2012, 04:24 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
The answer is simple, god created himself and the universe at the same time.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
13-05-2012, 05:23 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(13-05-2012 04:24 PM)Diablo Wrote:  The answer is simple, god created himself and the universe at the same time.


Creation implies beginning.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein (That's a JOKE, ya idiot)
"And you quit footing the bill for these nations that are oil rich - we're paying for some of their *squirmishes* that have been going on for centuries" - Sarah Palin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-05-2012, 10:52 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
I would consider the possibility that the universe did not come from nothing. It came from something that has always been, but not a god. Just another energy form.
We can measure the universe as expanding from a single point, but we know nothing of the situation before 13.74 billion years ago using our measure of time.
If...something cannot come from nothing...and the universe exists...the universe must have always existed, or what created our current universe always existed.
No god created it and nothing exists outside of existence where time is a measure of those in the physical existence.
There was never a beginning and there will be no end to the energy that is the universe.
Forms change, evolve, expand, contract, but the energy of the universe is a constant.
I believe we get caught up on everything having to have a beginning. Infinite regress is a problem unless you accept the infinite existence of energy.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-05-2012, 11:04 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(14-05-2012 10:52 AM)Thomas Wrote:  I would consider the possibility that the universe did not come from nothing. It came from something that has always been, but not a god. Just another energy form.
We can measure the universe as expanding from a single point, but we know nothing of the situation before 13.74 billion years ago using our measure of time.
If...something cannot come from nothing...and the universe exists...the universe must have always existed, or what created our current universe always existed.
No god created it and nothing exists outside of existence where time is a measure of those in the physical existence.
There was never a beginning and there will be no end to the energy that is the universe.
Forms change, evolve, expand, contract, but the energy of the universe is a constant.
I believe we get caught up on everything having to have a beginning. Infinite regress is a problem unless you accept the infinite existence of energy.


Agree. Philosophically, First Cause leads to infinite regression, until we know for sure. It does NOT lead to god(s). I asked Krauss once in a lecture, "if the universe 'arose', doesn't that imply there are/were conditions in which 'universes rise' ". He basically said we don't know, (yet).

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein (That's a JOKE, ya idiot)
"And you quit footing the bill for these nations that are oil rich - we're paying for some of their *squirmishes* that have been going on for centuries" - Sarah Palin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
14-05-2012, 07:05 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(13-05-2012 05:23 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(13-05-2012 04:24 PM)Diablo Wrote:  The answer is simple, god created himself and the universe at the same time.


Creation implies beginning.
And? I don't follow.

I thought you were going to say, "You cannot create something, if you don't exist".

Then I was going to say. "How does God create himself, if he doesn't exist?"
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
14-05-2012, 07:37 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(14-05-2012 07:05 PM)Diablo Wrote:  I don't follow.


A creative action requires what ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein (That's a JOKE, ya idiot)
"And you quit footing the bill for these nations that are oil rich - we're paying for some of their *squirmishes* that have been going on for centuries" - Sarah Palin
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-06-2012, 06:37 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
Dear SixForty:

There is no sense in talking with atheists the worst of which are ex-Christians.


However, try this tack, ask them to first work with you on coming to concurrence on concepts and principles which are involved in an issue, like for example, the existence of God.

That will keep them quiet, if not make them go away.


Examples of concepts to concur on is the concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the universem: which is God is the unique creator of the created universe; they will say that that is an assumption, and you will answer that yes it is an assumption on concepts, but when we agree on the concept of God then we can go forth in the universe to seek for God -- otherwise how can anyone recognize God if there is no concurred on concept of God.

Another one is the concept of the universe; for myself the universe is the totality of everything that exists in any way, in any domain, at any time and/or space, or no space and/or time even at all, but still in some domain at least in the world of concepts.



About principles, one is that we exist and we are certain we exist and also things exist which exist even though we are not around or have not yet come to existence, like rocks and water.

Another principle is that from nothing nothing can come forth.


Otherwise with atheists of which the worst are ex-Christians, it is all the time dodging from their part, and before you know if you are not on guard you are already distracted from the issue at hand.



Pachomius
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
10-06-2012, 08:53 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(10-06-2012 06:37 PM)Pachomius Wrote:  Dear SixForty:

There is no sense in talking with atheists the worst of which are ex-Christians.


However, try this tack, ask them to first work with you on coming to concurrence on concepts and principles which are involved in an issue, like for example, the existence of God.

That will keep them quiet, if not make them go away.


Examples of concepts to concur on is the concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the universem: which is God is the unique creator of the created universe; they will say that that is an assumption, and you will answer that yes it is an assumption on concepts, but when we agree on the concept of God then we can go forth in the universe to seek for God -- otherwise how can anyone recognize God if there is no concurred on concept of God.

Another one is the concept of the universe; for myself the universe is the totality of everything that exists in any way, in any domain, at any time and/or space, or no space and/or time even at all, but still in some domain at least in the world of concepts.



About principles, one is that we exist and we are certain we exist and also things exist which exist even though we are not around or have not yet come to existence, like rocks and water.

Another principle is that from nothing nothing can come forth.


Otherwise with atheists of which the worst are ex-Christians, it is all the time dodging from their part, and before you know if you are not on guard you are already distracted from the issue at hand.



Pachomius
Hello, Pachomius. None of us can fully prove the existence or non-existence of God. However, what makes the probability of the existence of God greater than the probability of the existence of... let's say, fairies?

With regards to this:
Quote: Examples of concepts to concur on is the concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the universe: which is God is the unique creator of the created universe; they will say that that is an assumption, and you will answer that yes it is an assumption on concepts, but when we agree on the concept of God then we can go forth in the universe to seek for God -- otherwise how can anyone recognize God if there is no concurred on concept of God.
You can actually substitute the word God with any other mythological deity of creature, and it will still mean the same thing.

A lot of us dare say that God is indeed an assumption. To put it in other words, God is a "scientific" model which is once used by ancient people to explain the world around us. This model is not backed up by any physical evidence whatsoever, the best "evidence" for God is from The Bible, a form of anecdotal evidence. God is conveniently defined by theists to be out of space and time, out of dimensions, omnipotent, omniscient...thus relinquishing the need for a rational argument for any evidence of God since now God cannot be tracked or found using any physical means based on this "definition". It's a desperate attempt to hide God in a safe place in my opinion. Models remain as models unless there is evidence which backs up the model or devastates it.

Everyone is learning. No one has perfect information with regards to a certain matter. That does not give anyone the excuse to conclude "God did it".

Welcome to science. You're gonna like it here - Phil Plait

Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes robotworld's post
10-06-2012, 08:59 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(10-06-2012 06:37 PM)Pachomius Wrote:  There is no sense in talking with atheists the worst of which are ex-Christians...
(10-06-2012 06:37 PM)Pachomius Wrote:  Otherwise with atheists of which the worst are ex-Christians, it is all the time dodging from their part, and before you know if you are not on guard you are already distracted from the issue at hand.
You're probably right. The worst atheists to discuss theology with are ex-Christians, because they will not only understand your point-of-view but know how it's flawed -- otherwise they'd still be Christians.

But I'll give you credit where credit is due. At least you recognize that it's possible to be an ex-Christian. There are many Christians who would deny our existence, but you're not in denial. Props.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
11-06-2012, 05:30 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
You mention fairies, but I am asking you atheists ex-Christians to come to concurrence on the concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the universe.

Do you at all notice that you are again into your dodging device and feeling so forgive me for the word, smug?

Will you please just come forth and bravely work with me on concurring on the concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the universe, instead of bringing in fairies, tooth fairies, sky daddies, spaghetti, unicorn, Santa, which are all stock distractions from you who call yourselves thinking atheists, but forgive me for the phrase, you are actually nothing more than dodging atheists.


Pachomius
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: