Outside of Space and Time
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11-06-2012, 07:08 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(11-06-2012 05:30 PM)Pachomius Wrote:  You mention fairies, but I am asking you atheists ex-Christians to come to concurrence on the concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the universe.

Do you at all notice that you are again into your dodging device and feeling so forgive me for the word, smug?

Will you please just come forth and bravely work with me on concurring on the concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the universe, instead of bringing in fairies, tooth fairies, sky daddies, spaghetti, unicorn, Santa, which are all stock distractions from you who call yourselves thinking atheists, but forgive me for the phrase, you are actually nothing more than dodging atheists.


Pachomius
Hello Pachomius, thank you for your reply Smile

Dodging? The "fairies, tooth fairies, sky daddies, spaghetti, unicorn, Santa" thing is used as a comparison with God. On what basis do we place the probability of existence of God higher than that of the aforementioned?

But, let's get to the point. I'm willing to work with you on with regards to the "concept of God". Where do we start? Maybe let me know of your viewpoints through these questions.

1) What is your religious denomination?
2) What are your points of view on (1) Evolution and (2) Age of Earth and Universe?
3) Tell me more with regards to your beliefs.

Thank you very much.

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11-06-2012, 09:14 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(11-06-2012 05:30 PM)Pachomius Wrote:  Will you please just come forth and bravely work with me on concurring on the concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the universe...

WTF does that even mean?

Genesis is Moses telling backstory. And not backstory to us, but backstory to primitives of a completely different culture. You mofos can't even read your own text. Read the first ten words. It ain't about god, nor heaven nor earth nor creation, it's about beginning. That's it. Story hadda begin somewhere. How do you know that god didn't stick the standard model lagrangian into Moses's head? And Moses go... gee, Big Guy, that ain't gonna fly. I mean, wtf do these people do? Moses gotta go up the hill, confer with the Chairman of the Board, he's like, Aaron, keep an eye on this crew, k? I mean, what kinda trouble can they come up with, waiting at the bottom of a hill in the middle of nowheres?

Well, gee... let's melt down all our cool YHWH memorabilia... and make a golden calf! Yeah, that's it! And it will show us the way! Moo! You gonna teach these people quantum mechanics, or you gonna start out by teaching these people to eat with silverware? Really. Dodgy

Here's some questions for ya: Are you descended from Adam? Well, then you ain't been created in god's image.

Got a dog? You're fucked.

Eat chicken? You're fucked.

Dood. Creationism exists for a single reason: it is the only thing in the known universe that is absolutely wrong. And there it is.

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12-06-2012, 05:10 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(11-06-2012 05:30 PM)Pachomius Wrote:  Will you please just come forth and bravely work with me on concurring on the concept of God in the Christian faith in His fundamental relation to the universe, instead of bringing in fairies, tooth fairies, sky daddies, spaghetti, unicorn, Santa, which are all stock distractions from you who call yourselves thinking atheists...

I don't think they're stock distractions. As robotworld explained, they're analogies.

When you accuse atheists of "dodging", you're applying the fundamental attribution error. That's a bias that allows you to give yourself the benefit of the doubt in situations where you wouldn't do that for others -- for example, calling an atheist "dodging" when they use an analogy and calling it "clarifying" when you do (assuming that you would).

Doing this is a form of double-standard, and this probably springs from your lack of empathy (the ability to put yourself in the shoes of another person / see things from their point of view). When we mention things like fairies it's because we know that it's something that you don't believe in. What we're trying to bring about is empathy -- we want you to understand *why* we don't share your lack of skepticism in Christianity. By making you think about something that you don't believe in, we want those thoughts to lead to *why* you don't believe in them, and to apply that same standard to the beliefs that you do hold.

And the term you were searching for is "red herring", but I hope I've helped you to understand why it isn't a distraction/red herring but rather a tool to build empathy.

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20-06-2012, 09:47 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
Creationism is an attempt to change the world to fit the bible.

When will you simply choose to change the bible to fit the world?

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21-06-2012, 12:18 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(20-06-2012 09:47 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Creationism is an attempt to change the world to fit the bible.

When will you simply choose to change the bible to fit the world?
Some Christians actually do the latter. Our friend KC for example claims that the entire Genesis story is just figurative and that he can therefore believe in Evolution since it does no longer contradict what is written in the Bible.

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21-06-2012, 03:06 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(21-06-2012 12:18 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(20-06-2012 09:47 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Creationism is an attempt to change the world to fit the bible.

When will you simply choose to change the bible to fit the world?
Some Christians actually do the latter. Our friend KC for example claims that the entire Genesis story is just figurative and that he can therefore believe in Evolution since it does no longer contradict what is written in the Bible.
I meant a more rigorous rewrite type of thing.

Then claim scientifically divine inspiration! Big Grin

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21-06-2012, 05:56 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(20-06-2012 09:47 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Creationism is an attempt to change the world to fit the bible.

When will you simply choose to change the bible to fit the world?



Creationists would not have crap without science!
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21-06-2012, 06:40 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
Anyways the idea that god is independent of space time is bad logic.
Things exist in space and in time.
God isn't in space or time.
Nothing isn't in space or time.
There for god is nothing.

Or another fun argument.
If god is independent from space time.
And the universe exists in space time.
Then the universe is independent from from god.

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21-06-2012, 07:01 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(04-05-2012 10:55 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  We more than likely live in a multiverse.

A god could potentially exist in another universe, or even the void separating universes (if such a thing exists). If a god lived in another universe, I don't see how it would be possible for him to alter this one in any way. If god lived in the void, for a lack of a better word, then he could potentially alter our universe.

Though any time you move god out of our universe to explain how he created our universe, then you have to explain who created the new area he was located at.

I know this is sort of an old response that I'm quoting, but it just stood out to me.

So, what I want to know is, what "god" are you explaining?

Mankind has given so many descriptions of "god" or "gods" that it's good to be specific.
The reason is because, it is logical to think that if a god does exist, then it would in fact be a great deal beyond the thinking capacity of the human mind. I know I'm skipping a lot of meaty things in-between, but to think that a creature that created something as massive and complex as the entirety of the Cosmos with its voids, black holes, material mysteries and so forth as something that would be limited by something we can comprehend, just doesn't make sense.
If this creature is beyond the universe, then maybe it's safe to say that it's beyond the natural law comprehended by the greatest human mind.

So when you say "If a god lived in another universe, I don't see how it would be possible for him to alter this one in any way", you're essentially saying that if a god does exist, he/she/it must absolutely have these defined limitations. Again, it's not too far fetched to understand that if something were to exist outside of the material existence of the Cosmos, then it probably has properties that aren't within our normal studies.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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21-06-2012, 07:07 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(21-06-2012 07:01 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(04-05-2012 10:55 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  We more than likely live in a multiverse.

A god could potentially exist in another universe, or even the void separating universes (if such a thing exists). If a god lived in another universe, I don't see how it would be possible for him to alter this one in any way. If god lived in the void, for a lack of a better word, then he could potentially alter our universe.

Though any time you move god out of our universe to explain how he created our universe, then you have to explain who created the new area he was located at.

I know this is sort of an old response that I'm quoting, but it just stood out to me.

So, what I want to know is, what "god" are you explaining?

Mankind has given so many descriptions of "god" or "gods" that it's good to be specific.
The reason is because, it is logical to think that if a god does exist, then it would in fact be a great deal beyond the thinking capacity of the human mind. I know I'm skipping a lot of meaty things in-between, but to think that a creature that created something as massive and complex as the entirety of the Cosmos with its voids, black holes, material mysteries and so forth as something that would be limited by something we can comprehend, just doesn't make sense.
If this creature is beyond the universe, then maybe it's safe to say that it's beyond the natural law comprehended by the greatest human mind.

So when you say "If a god lived in another universe, I don't see how it would be possible for him to alter this one in any way", you're essentially saying that if a god does exist, he/she/it must absolutely have these defined limitations. Again, it's not too far fetched to understand that if something were to exist outside of the material existence of the Cosmos, then it probably has properties that aren't within our normal studies.
I take it you are a theist? Why? What is it that you need a god for?

And what does 'outside of space and time' even mean?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
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