Outside of Space and Time
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
21-06-2012, 07:41 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(21-06-2012 07:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  I take it you are a theist? Why? What is it that you need a god for?

And what does 'outside of space and time' even mean?


If it was god that created the universe, then I suspect that at that time, we needed him for the creation of the universe. Other than that, you're reaching into another topic.

If it was a gooey monster named phil, then, at that time, that is what we needed phil for.

If the universe has always existed and is self-sustaining, then we don't need a god for the creation of the universe. He would be, in that aspect, redundant.

As far as the question of what 'outside of space and time' what that means, I couldn't give you the best or most professional answer for that.
I can say, that according to models that I can understand of the condition of the universe, it looks like the universe had a beginning. So, since at some point the universe either did not exist, or barely existed, then we can converse about something outside of the universe.

So, going back pre-big bang, what was outside the spec that was before the explosion?
I know that's too simplistic of a question, but I'm just trying to give you my train of thinking.
I just don't think it's illogical to be open to the thought that there is an 'outside' of the universe. Even if it is only a moldy cheeseburger lol

Ok, but as far as outside time itself, that's a little more deep than I have gone so far.. You'll have to get back to me on that one. lol

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-06-2012, 02:40 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(21-06-2012 07:41 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Ok, but as far as outside time itself, that's a little more deep than I have gone so far.. You'll have to get back to me on that one. lol
Technically speaking, there was nothing before the big bang, because time itself didn't exist before the big bang. So fundamentally the question in itself is a bit empty.

First off, we don't really have a nothing or anything outside of time and space to compare with. What is a nothing?

So how would we in any way shape or form know if a creator was outside of space and time? The only plausible explanation for this is the argument from causation. You're saying, "It had to have a beginning, and we don't know what was before that, so the cause had to be god so god must be outside space and time." if I am understanding your argument.

In order to do that you still need to do a few things:

- Define what a god is, we don't have one to examine, so how do we even know what a god is?
- Define where a god would exist. If we don't have one to examine, we have no way of knowing if it is something tangible or intangible, since we don't really have any evidence that there is any intervention of one in our tangible reality.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-06-2012, 04:09 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(22-06-2012 02:40 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Technically speaking, there was nothing before the big bang, because time itself didn't exist before the big bang. So fundamentally the question in itself is a bit empty.

Ok, I see what you're saying here. In order for there to be existence (of any natural kind) there must be time, and that makes sense. So the statement "outside time" becomes somewhat nonsensical.
I guess the only notion I can poke at would be that the fact that time had a start (potential infinite) instead of there always being time (actual infinite), is quite peculiar. That's where I cannot be sure about anything. Even the observation that time started somewhere is interesting, and almost doesn't make sense. I'm not even sure why, but to me it feels more comfortable to say "time has always been", but hard evidence says otherwise.

(22-06-2012 02:40 AM)Logisch Wrote:  First off, we don't really have a nothing or anything outside of time and space to compare with. What is a nothing?

Well, I believe that after lawrence krauss' observation and definition of what he calls "nothing", there are actually two definitions of "nothing".
It seems that Lawrence, in his book A Universe from Nothing, which has the subtitle Why there is something rather than nothing? was attempting to answer Gottfried Leibniz who asked, “Why do we have something rather than nothing at all?”
I thought that Lawrence was definitely going to answer Leibniz's question, but it looks like Lawrence just made a second definition of "nothing".

This first definition, and most blatant, is: Not any thing, or nothing at all, or something that does not exist.
Just for kicks, lets put God in this definition lol
Nothing is: Something that does not exist (God)

Ok, so then we look at Lawrence's definition of nothing.
"empty space" and/or "the quantum vacuum"
If they have properties, they are something.

I don't mind if he made another definition of 'nothing', but I wouldn't want people to be confused when I say the word 'nothing'. I mean a literal not anything at all when I say that word.
So you could technically say that my notion of nothing is nonsensical and can't even be fathomed. Sure! Smile

(22-06-2012 02:40 AM)Logisch Wrote:  So how would we in any way shape or form know if a creator was outside of space and time? The only plausible explanation for this is the argument from causation. You're saying, "It had to have a beginning, and we don't know what was before that, so the cause had to be god so god must be outside space and time." if I am understanding your argument.

Well, I did not state anything about arguments for the existence of God. So far, I'm just making observations with what my mind can handle lol
In the argument that you're talking about though, I don't exactly put it that way.

If something did create the universe:

1.) It would have to posess massive ability and intelligence.
Example: If I want to create a desktop computer from scratch, I need to posess the physical ability and intelligence in order to create the Desktop. Technically, I don't think a Desktop computer is going to ever create itself lol. The odds are just... well, it's just not going to happen xD

2.) It seems (maybe you can correct me on this) like the being would have to be 'outside' the substance of space in order to create space.. As far as time, that can be confusing because it seems like anything (natural) would need time in order to move or think. That's just normal thinking.



(22-06-2012 02:40 AM)Logisch Wrote:  In order to do that you still need to do a few things:

- Define what a god is, we don't have one to examine, so how do we even know what a god is?
- Define where a god would exist. If we don't have one to examine, we have no way of knowing if it is something tangible or intangible, since we don't really have any evidence that there is any intervention of one in our tangible reality.


Ok, this is just... I don't have time to get this deep lol
I'll have to let this one go for now. I think it's safe to say, I'm not trying to define what god is, I just want to find out the probability of the existence of something resembling a "godlike" being.

Whew, my mind is busy! LOL

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes ideasonscribe's post
22-06-2012, 04:33 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
I like your answers. You're not afraid to think. Good stuff Smile I wasn't sure if your thoughts were that of what god is, or if you were just considering what could be. I see that you're very inquisitive. I like your post. Welcome to the forums Smile

Here is an interesting way to think about time. Some people have a really hard time thinking of time not existing before the big bang.

Here's a good example. Black holes. So dense that light itself cannot escape. The closer you get to a black hole, the more time is distorted as well. At some point, it is so dense that it may as well be that time itself does not even exist, this would be beyond the event horizon and into portions that there would be no way we could possibly experience it, but we can at least fathom it.

If you think from a larger perspective, before the big bang happened, imagine how dense the universe was. Imagine how small it was and imagine that it would be like, it would be on a scale almost incomprehensible to that of a black hole. There would be nothing for time to exist in. If that makes sense.

On another level of thinking, consider that perhaps we are not the only universe, and perhaps different universes could potentially have different density or mass. Time could potentially be entirely different there. What if big bangs are as common as any other occurrence throughout the fabric of space?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Logisch's post
22-06-2012, 05:08 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(22-06-2012 04:33 PM)Logisch Wrote:  I like your answers. You're not afraid to think.

I love to think! Without that quality, I would be one of the most depressed individuals around me.
Just to bring some personally history ~ I was actually encouraged to complex thinking by my parents who discouraged deep thought. I was raised Pentecostal, and I was a kid of many interesting questions about Scripture, purpose in life and God. The elders of that Church didn't like my questions and neither did my parents. Their answers of "You just have to have faith" and "Put the books down and just believe" were answers that enraged me. I would never give any curious individual such answers.
Then, after joining the military, I searched for answers on my own. Philosophy, Science, Apologetics and Theology were the largest studied topics during that time. After a while, from what I had been learning, I came to many conclusions. One of the biggest being that the Pentecostal or "Charismatic Movement" was one that has and would turn people away from the notion of a loving creator. Instead they would give the impression that this "god" wanted our "love gift" for a magic healing cloth.
Anyways, my story of being a thinker is like a story of rebellion lol xD


(22-06-2012 04:33 PM)Logisch Wrote:  Here is an interesting way to think about time. Some people have a really hard time thinking of time not existing before the big bang.

Here's a good example. Black holes. So dense that light itself cannot escape. The closer you get to a black hole, the more time is distorted as well. At some point, it is so dense that it may as well be that time itself does not even exist, this would be beyond the event horizon and into portions that there would be no way we could possibly experience it, but we can at least fathom it.

If you think from a larger perspective, before the big bang happened, imagine how dense the universe was. Imagine how small it was and imagine that it would be like, it would be on a scale almost incomprehensible to that of a black hole. There would be nothing for time to exist in. If that makes sense.

This is definitely an interesting perspective on time. I think in order for me to understand the condition of time throughout the universe and in perspective to pre-big bang, I'd have to get into the study of this material.


(22-06-2012 04:33 PM)Logisch Wrote:  On another level of thinking, consider that perhaps we are not the only universe, and perhaps different universes could potentially have different density or mass. Time could potentially be entirely different there. What if big bangs are as common as any other occurrence throughout the fabric of space?


I've thought (and studied a little) about other universes existing, and that is certainly and interesting notion.
I don't know much about what to think of it since it is mostly just theory at the moment. But, at first glance, it seems like the idea of other universes outside of space would be about as far fetched as saying "outside space". If there are other universes, then there certainly is an "outside space" and now we have the issue of time (as you stated above about the black holes), why would time start at the big bang, when there are universes with time within themselves? That would have to mean... there are multiple times O.O Brain freeze!!
xD

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-06-2012, 06:23 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(21-06-2012 07:41 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(21-06-2012 07:07 PM)Chas Wrote:  I take it you are a theist? Why? What is it that you need a god for?

And what does 'outside of space and time' even mean?


If it was god that created the universe, then I suspect that at that time, we needed him for the creation of the universe. Other than that, you're reaching into another topic.

If it was a gooey monster named phil, then, at that time, that is what we needed phil for.

If the universe has always existed and is self-sustaining, then we don't need a god for the creation of the universe. He would be, in that aspect, redundant.

As far as the question of what 'outside of space and time' what that means, I couldn't give you the best or most professional answer for that.
I can say, that according to models that I can understand of the condition of the universe, it looks like the universe had a beginning. So, since at some point the universe either did not exist, or barely existed, then we can converse about something outside of the universe.

So, going back pre-big bang, what was outside the spec that was before the explosion?
I know that's too simplistic of a question, but I'm just trying to give you my train of thinking.
I just don't think it's illogical to be open to the thought that there is an 'outside' of the universe. Even if it is only a moldy cheeseburger lol

Ok, but as far as outside time itself, that's a little more deep than I have gone so far.. You'll have to get back to me on that one. lol
You seem to be assuming that the universe was created. There is no evidence; it may have always existed - more precisely, the mass/energy that make up the universe may have always existed.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Chas's post
22-06-2012, 06:59 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(22-06-2012 06:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  You seem to be assuming that the universe was created. There is no evidence; it may have always existed - more precisely, the mass/energy that make up the universe may have always existed.


Well, I'm not quite assuming that it was created. Most of the time, I will say "If" the universe was created. That's my safety word - "If" lol
I used to say things like "Well it makes more sense since the universe had a beginning, then it must have been created". Now, I understand different perspectives that show it's not always necessary to say that something that has a beginning was "created" (although this may currently be my stance however).

Anyways, more directly to your statement above - "There is no evidence; it may have always existed"

This is an age-old topic, but I'm going to come at it this way; Lately modern technology and great minds have uncovered that the universe seems to have been at a point where it was just a massive explosion coming from what is commonly called a 'singularity'. I'm sure you may already know this by now, many many people know this. But this "Big Bang" or explosion may not (to some) be evidence that the universe was created as from a being or such, but it is, however, evidence that there may have been a point where the universe did not exist.

A friend of mine tried to explain something to me. It was quite clever, and I felt like one of the most insignificant people after I understood it.

Use the fraction 1/x
Start with the number 2 as x
That denotes half of something or .5
Then make the number larger (1000+ ~)
The larger the bottom number, the smaller the number becomes correct?
Alright so, 1/1,000,000,000,000 is a pretty small number. Maybe someone can calculate that for me.
But anyways, the point is that the number keeps getting smaller and smaller.

What he was trying to explain to me was that 'infinity' was said to be reached once you have gone far enough. That sounds ludacris to me, but he said that they have been trying to figure this out mathmatically and have been getting quite close to understanding the concept of infinity (Without fully grasping it mentally of course).

So I believe quite emphatically that there is evidence (Not proof) that there was a beginning of this universe. As far as the Theory that the mass and energy have always existed, I'm not sure on that one.
If the universe was once a 'singularity' then it is quite intense to think that all the mass and energy all around us and in all of this Cosmos was once inside a point that was smaller then the human eye can see. That's... wow.

Anyways, this is where you and I may disagree -
I believe the evidence showing the universe having a beginning is a peice of evidence for me towards intention. And I don't want to be repetitive, but yeah, I do think, just like the creation of my laptop required intention, the starting of a universe may be denoting a type of intention.
But, believe it or not, I see flaw in my own thinking. It's just where I stand currently.
^^

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-06-2012, 07:08 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(22-06-2012 06:59 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(22-06-2012 06:23 PM)Chas Wrote:  You seem to be assuming that the universe was created. There is no evidence; it may have always existed - more precisely, the mass/energy that make up the universe may have always existed.


Well, I'm not quite assuming that it was created. Most of the time, I will say "If" the universe was created. That's my safety word - "If" lol
I used to say things like "Well it makes more sense since the universe had a beginning, then it must have been created". Now, I understand different perspectives that show it's not always necessary to say that something that has a beginning was "created" (although this may currently be my stance however).

Anyways, more directly to your statement above - "There is no evidence; it may have always existed"

This is an age-old topic, but I'm going to come at it this way; Lately modern technology and great minds have uncovered that the universe seems to have been at a point where it was just a massive explosion coming from what is commonly called a 'singularity'. I'm sure you may already know this by now, many many people know this. But this "Big Bang" or explosion may not (to some) be evidence that the universe was created as from a being or such, but it is, however, evidence that there may have been a point where the universe did not exist.

A friend of mine tried to explain something to me. It was quite clever, and I felt like one of the most insignificant people after I understood it.

Use the fraction 1/x
Start with the number 2 as x
That denotes half of something or .5
Then make the number larger (1000+ ~)
The larger the bottom number, the smaller the number becomes correct?
Alright so, 1/1,000,000,000,000 is a pretty small number. Maybe someone can calculate that for me.
But anyways, the point is that the number keeps getting smaller and smaller.

What he was trying to explain to me was that 'infinity' was said to be reached once you have gone far enough. That sounds ludacris to me, but he said that they have been trying to figure this out mathmatically and have been getting quite close to understanding the concept of infinity (Without fully grasping it mentally of course).

So I believe quite emphatically that there is evidence (Not proof) that there was a beginning of this universe. As far as the Theory that the mass and energy have always existed, I'm not sure on that one.
If the universe was once a 'singularity' then it is quite intense to think that all the mass and energy all around us and in all of this Cosmos was once inside a point that was smaller then the human eye can see. That's... wow.

Anyways, this is where you and I may disagree -
I believe the evidence showing the universe having a beginning is a peice of evidence for me towards intention. And I don't want to be repetitive, but yeah, I do think, just like the creation of my laptop required intention, the starting of a universe may be denoting a type of intention.
But, believe it or not, I see flaw in my own thinking. It's just where I stand currently.
^^
Neither the existence nor definition of a singularity are precise or agreed upon.
All I'm saying is that arguments about creation assume creation. If there is no creation, then there is no need to explain it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-06-2012, 07:28 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(22-06-2012 06:59 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Use the fraction 1/x
Start with the number 2 as x
That denotes half of something or .5
Then make the number larger (1000+ ~)
The larger the bottom number, the smaller the number becomes correct?
Alright so, 1/1,000,000,000,000 is a pretty small number. Maybe someone can calculate that for me.
But anyways, the point is that the number keeps getting smaller and smaller.


[Image: 0009.gif]


(Click on it for some math. Or not. Big Grin )

As for the creation of the universe, let a prophet tell it: In the beginning, Gwyneth Paltrow created me. From me the universe. Entirely scriptural in the sense of "creation" beginning with "I am." Every morning you wake, the I that am creates your entire environment. It does that from sensory input and memory. You wanna get into technical details about a singularity of infinite density and zero diameter; well, you're pretty much gonna hafta click the linky and learn some math. Wink

living word
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-06-2012, 07:48 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
I think the problem is like this. Lets say god comes from the other "what ever the hell it is" into our universe.

He'd have to gain properties of existence to be able to do anything.

As a being who'd exist everywhere in everything, his mass would be infinite, his energy would be infinite and spacetime would be infinite, and his very existence in this way would destroy the universe as we know it.

If he left you'd have to take away all the things that constitutes his being, resulting in a true nothingness.

Now the interesting thing is that one could postulate that the creation of the universe requires the death of god. haha
And that leads to another infinite regress trying to figuring where god came from, what that other place is like etc.

Member of the Cult of Reason

The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
Bitcion:1DNeQMswMdvx4xLPP6qNE7RkeTwXGC7Bzp
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: