Outside of Space and Time
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22-06-2012, 07:51 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(22-06-2012 07:28 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
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Ok, first, thank you for the link. This is some heavy stuff! Says it WAY better than I could lol
I have to show this to my friend... if he hasn't already seen it lol


(22-06-2012 07:28 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  As for the creation of the universe, let a prophet tell it: In the beginning, Gwyneth Paltrow created me. From me the universe. Entirely scriptural in the sense of "creation" beginning with "I am." Every morning you wake, the I that am creates your entire environment. It does that from sensory input and memory.

This sounds something similar to the Simulation Hypothesis or Solipsism. Kind of like Einstein's quote "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one". lol
I'm not much on reality being an illusion. If it is, then there seems to be no hope of knowing what is really the real real O.o lol
But, I do like the thought that, if reality is an illusion, then there must be at least one mind to be doing the illusioning hah..
er something like that.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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22-06-2012, 08:08 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(22-06-2012 07:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  Neither the existence nor definition of a singularity are precise or agreed upon.
All I'm saying is that arguments about creation assume creation. If there is no creation, then there is no need to explain it.


I'll have to split with you a little on this one lol

Not all arguments or all aspects of arguments are making the assumption of creation. It would be the opposite for some.
Presupposing creation would denote a great deal of bias, and I would call it out pretty quickly if I saw that.
It's more like arguments (Cosmological Argument for example), make an effort to show that the universe having a beginning shows there is evidence to support that the universe may have been created. If it was created, then whatever created it had to have an immense amount of power and intelligence.
So far, it seems like I'm a little rusty on these arguments, so just show me what I'm missing here lol.
But as far as I can tell, most arguments aren't presupposing the universe to be created, it's usually the creation or non-creation being the subject in question ultimately.

On your last statement "If there is no creation, then there is no need to explain it."
The creation part is what is still to be argued.
If we have yet to prove it, then explanation of it is still valid... within reason lol

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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22-06-2012, 08:12 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(22-06-2012 08:08 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(22-06-2012 07:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  Neither the existence nor definition of a singularity are precise or agreed upon.
All I'm saying is that arguments about creation assume creation. If there is no creation, then there is no need to explain it.


I'll have to split with you a little on this one lol

Not all arguments or all aspects of arguments are making the assumption of creation. It would be the opposite for some.
Presupposing creation would denote a great deal of bias, and I would call it out pretty quickly if I saw that.
It's more like arguments (Cosmological Argument for example), make an effort to show that the universe having a beginning shows there is evidence to support that the universe may have been created. If it was created, then whatever created it had to have an immense amount of power and intelligence.
So far, it seems like I'm a little rusty on these arguments, so just show me what I'm missing here lol.
But as far as I can tell, most arguments aren't presupposing the universe to be created, it's usually the creation or non-creation being the subject in question ultimately.

On your last statement "If there is no creation, then there is no need to explain it."
The creation part is what is still to be argued.
If we have yet to prove it, then explanation of it is still valid... within reason lol
I wasn't completely clear. When I say 'created' I mean 'had a beginning'. \
So, if the universe had no beginning, then there is nothing to explain, and there is no creator.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-06-2012, 08:48 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(22-06-2012 07:51 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  If it is, then there seems to be no hope of knowing what is really the real real O.o lol

Oh noes, not the Really Real Real! Big Grin

That'll be an absolute reference frame, which is currently in the bin, as far as science is concerned. Which leaves, religion, and you being here to stir up controversy, contrary to the precepts of the one true god Gwyneth Paltrow... Angry

Big Grin Angry Big Grin Angry ... Tongue

Can't have that! Wait, what was the question?

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22-06-2012, 08:57 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(22-06-2012 08:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  I wasn't completely clear. When I say 'created' I mean 'had a beginning'. \
So, if the universe had no beginning, then there is nothing to explain, and there is no creator.


Alright well that's fair enough I suppose.
If the universe has always existed, then there was no beginning to the universe, therefore no creator, therefore no God. Or something to that effect.

I just don't think I'll ever buy into the notion of this universe having existed infinitely long.
Maybe I can use an analogy to explain where I'm coming from;
Ok, say I'm waiting for a ride back home from work. I'm waiting at the side of a road. Here's the situation - the road is infinitely long.
The road being infinitely long, would mean I would never get a ride back home.
That's because it would take infinitely long for my ride to get where I'm standing.

I think of that road in the same sense as time. If time is infinitely long, then it would be impossible for us to have been able to get to this point. Therefore, it seems more logical to me that the universe and time had a beginning.

The universe being infinitely old would have to mean that things like this can happen within nature.
If actual infinites exist within nature, then we would see absurdities in nature. An example I can think of is the rotation of the earth and the moon.
The moon makes 12X more rotations around the earth (I think), than the earth makes around the sun.
But say they had both been making rotations for all of eternity, the amount of rotations that they have made would be equal - they both made the same exact amount of rotations. That's an absurdity that I think we would see if actual infinites existed within nature.

I hope you can understand what I'm saying. My communication isn't the best lol

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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22-06-2012, 09:32 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(22-06-2012 08:57 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(22-06-2012 08:12 PM)Chas Wrote:  I wasn't completely clear. When I say 'created' I mean 'had a beginning'. \
So, if the universe had no beginning, then there is nothing to explain, and there is no creator.


Alright well that's fair enough I suppose.
If the universe has always existed, then there was no beginning to the universe, therefore no creator, therefore no God. Or something to that effect.

I just don't think I'll ever buy into the notion of this universe having existed infinitely long.
Maybe I can use an analogy to explain where I'm coming from;
Ok, say I'm waiting for a ride back home from work. I'm waiting at the side of a road. Here's the situation - the road is infinitely long.
The road being infinitely long, would mean I would never get a ride back home.
That's because it would take infinitely long for my ride to get where I'm standing.

I think of that road in the same sense as time. If time is infinitely long, then it would be impossible for us to have been able to get to this point. Therefore, it seems more logical to me that the universe and time had a beginning.

The universe being infinitely old would have to mean that things like this can happen within nature.
If actual infinites exist within nature, then we would see absurdities in nature. An example I can think of is the rotation of the earth and the moon.
The moon makes 12X more rotations around the earth (I think), than the earth makes around the sun.
But say they had both been making rotations for all of eternity, the amount of rotations that they have made would be equal - they both made the same exact amount of rotations. That's an absurdity that I think we would see if actual infinites existed within nature.

I hope you can understand what I'm saying. My communication isn't the best lol
Your thoughts about infinity don't add up.

For instance, there are infinitely many integers; there are infinitely many even integers. There are the same number of even integers as there are integers. There are as many integers that are multiples of twelve as there are integers. The proof is simple - there is a one-to-one mapping. Google Cantor. He also showed that there are more real numbers than integers.

The conclusion that because time is infinite means that nothing can ever happen doesn't make any sense. Now is now, what is happening now is happening regardless of how much time has passed before.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-06-2012, 09:46 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(22-06-2012 09:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  Your thoughts about infinity don't add up.

For instance, there are infinitely many integers; there are infinitely many even integers. There are the same number of even integers as there are integers. There are as many integers that are multiples of twelve as there are integers. The proof is simple - there is a one-to-one mapping. Google Cantor. He also showed that there are more real numbers than integers.

The conclusion that because time is infinite means that nothing can ever happen doesn't make any sense. Now is now, what is happening now is happening regardless of how much time has passed before.


Hmm, well I'm not sure where to go from here.
To my understanding, 'now' is still not a time in which we could have reached within an infinitely large timeline. It seems like in order for me to fully understand how we got to a 'now', I may have to reach an understanding of extremely complex mathematics.
Just because there are an infinite amount of odd and even integers, it still does not solve the problem of time (to me anyway).
So I think I'm just gonna slow down on this one for now. I think my brain has reached it's edge on this particular topic lol

That reminds me!
Have you guys heard of this awesome website that strengthens your brain?
Here's the link:
www.lumosity.com
I play Sudoku a lot and after a while, I realized that my thinking was interestingly more sharp and I could solve difficult conflicts or problems much easier.
This Lumosity site has tons of brain games that helps the brain to function much better in so many different areas.

I have ADHD, so I am attracted to this whole thing. They have a section that is specifically designed for people with ADHD. I haven't subscribed yet because my wife is skeptical about it and we're on a tight budget right now. But it's actually not that expensive. Smile
Sorry if this is off topic, I was just reminded of this after straining my brain so far lol.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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23-06-2012, 04:48 PM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(21-06-2012 07:01 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  The reason is because, it is logical to think that if a god does exist, then it would in fact be a great deal beyond the thinking capacity of the human mind. I know I'm skipping a lot of meaty things in-between, but to think that a creature that created something as massive and complex as the entirety of the Cosmos with its voids, black holes, material mysteries and so forth as something that would be limited by something we can comprehend, just doesn't make sense.
If this creature is beyond the universe, then maybe it's safe to say that it's beyond the natural law comprehended by the greatest human mind.

Fair enough. Once you get to the point of saying "it's beyond our understanding" though, any further thought on the subject is pure speculation. That's where skepticism finds its use.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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06-11-2013, 05:40 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
(10-06-2012 06:37 PM)Pachomius Wrote:  Another principle is that from nothing nothing can come forth.

Pachomius

Doesn't religion claim God created the universe "ex nihilo" - "from nothing"?

HuhHuh
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06-11-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: Outside of Space and Time
Can god go back in time to undo what he did?
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