Overpopulation
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27-01-2017, 08:43 AM
RE: Overpopulation
(27-01-2017 08:34 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  Saying "It hasn't gone wrong in the past" - is like telling a guy who jumped off a 20 story building -- "Don't worry - you passed the 10th floor without a problem"....
We were supposed to be in the impact crater by now, and there's no evidence we've even jumped. The projections of the ZPG people in the 60's and 70's were completely wrong. Population growth has moderated, and in the first world, leveled off. In fact here in the US it will probably start dropping. Too many old people. Too many young people who are indifferent at best to having children, especially lots of them. There are some like my daughter, to be sure, who would have more if they could afford them -- but even she stopped at 3 because it's too expensive and she's educated enough to use birth control. Many more are like my stepdaughter, who wants no children whatsoever.
(27-01-2017 08:34 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  My estimation -- is the best way to encourage population reduction (note - not "limit population growth") -- is to change the way society punishes those people who do not procreate.

Tax credits for more kids???? Not really the message that needs sending.
Yes and no. You'd have to show that removing those credits would actually influence how many children people have, despite that many people regularly act irrationally and/or in opposition to their rational self interest. And then you would have to show that it overcomes the downsides, which would be, less quality of life for developing children. Those tax credits are designed to help pay for the child's existence.

All that said, I totally agree with you that no congratulations are in order for someone who has a child, and the decision is not automatically a virtuous one to be commended. It's often self-absorbed and ill-considered, even apart from population growth concerns. A child has no say in coming into existence, in what family and socio-economic milieu it is born into, into what quality of life, so it behooves parents to take such decisions very, very seriously -- much more so than the cavalier manner in which children are often conceived.
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27-01-2017, 08:44 AM (This post was last modified: 27-01-2017 09:25 AM by Vera.)
RE: Overpopulation
The always brilliant Kurzgesagt have an interesting video about that.





Personally, and for various reasons, I don't want kids; never have and can't really see this changing. I don't dislike kids (most of the time and in small doses Rolleyes ), it's just not for me.

Funny (well, not really) thing is, I have this... person I know who was bitching about charities providing clean water to "those children in Africa", as, apparently, it would be better if they just died... yet, she really wants to preserve *her* precious genes, even though her husband already has three mini-him's by a previous marriage. The arrogance and selfishness of that woman and the irony are staggering Facepalm

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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27-01-2017, 08:46 AM
RE: Overpopulation
(27-01-2017 08:39 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  And -

quote -

Educated populations are better off financially, and participate in economies that don't need large numbers of offspring as a hedge against child mortality and a source of cheap or free drudge labor. They are more likely to practice sustainable agriculture and tread gently on the environment.

unquote --


Apparently you haven't seen the bastards living in their McMansions that are springing up everywhere -- commuting back and forth to work in their high dollar, low MPG SUV's -- that they MUST have - to "take the kids to soccer practice".......


That's where I see the "better educated" folks.....
Edge cases make bad policy. You're talking about the so-called top 0.1% there. The simple fact is that educated people don't have lots of kids relative to uneducated people. And by "educated" I don't mean at Harvard with a silver spoon up your ass.
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27-01-2017, 08:46 AM
RE: Overpopulation
(27-01-2017 08:39 AM)onlinebiker Wrote:  And -

quote -

Educated populations are better off financially, and participate in economies that don't need large numbers of offspring as a hedge against child mortality and a source of cheap or free drudge labor. They are more likely to practice sustainable agriculture and tread gently on the environment.

unquote --


Apparently you haven't seen the bastards living in their McMansions that are springing up everywhere -- commuting back and forth to work in their high dollar, low MPG SUV's -- that they MUST have - to "take the kids to soccer practice".......


That's where I see the "better educated" folks.....

Well, having lots of kids used to be important to survival. My gramps was able to sustain a farm and butcher shop because he had 11 kids working. As the kids grew more responsible, he was even able to add a small inn. Once the kids got married, some left, some stayed and ran the businesses with their families, allowing gramps to retire and be taken care of by the kids.

If gramps had not had all those kids, he would have gotten nowhere, growing and selling some potatoes and raising a cow or two a year.

Today, kids are an added expense, not a financial asset. Many people have kids who can't even afford to feed them and need the rest of us to foot the bill.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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27-01-2017, 08:47 AM
RE: Overpopulation
(27-01-2017 08:44 AM)Vera Wrote:  I have this... person I know who was bitching about charities providing clean water to "those children in Africa", as, apparently, it would be better if they just died... yet, she really wants to preserve *her* precious genes, even though her husband already has three mini-him's by a previous marriage. The arrogance and selfishness of that woman and the irony are staggering Facepalm
Yes totally agree.
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27-01-2017, 08:53 AM
RE: Overpopulation
(27-01-2017 08:46 AM)Dom Wrote:  If gramps had not had all those kids, he would have gotten nowhere, growing and selling some potatoes and raising a cow or two a year.

Today, kids are an added expense, not a financial asset. Many people have kids who can't even afford to feed them and need the rest of us to foot the bill.
Yes, modern economies are simply less labor-intensive now and it has become far more about entrepreneurialism and deployment of concentrated intellectual capital. That is just one of the many brakes / disincentives that are being placed on population growth.

The main problem is that procreation remains a primal urge, all out of proportion to its need. Thankfully, it's much, much less of a thing that society conspires to push. When I was young, I was personally indifferent at best to having offspring, but the societal pressure to have them was far more substantial, and I allowed my then-wife to push me into it, because "it's what you do", and it was what she felt the whole thrust of her existence was, and I was being "selfish", etc.

I think if I were young today I would feel much less social pressure and could reasonably hope, with a little selectivity, to find a like-minded wife. I would have had either zero or one child (even the stigma of the Only Child is now fading) rather than two.
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27-01-2017, 08:59 AM
RE: Overpopulation
(27-01-2017 08:53 AM)mordant Wrote:  
(27-01-2017 08:46 AM)Dom Wrote:  If gramps had not had all those kids, he would have gotten nowhere, growing and selling some potatoes and raising a cow or two a year.

Today, kids are an added expense, not a financial asset. Many people have kids who can't even afford to feed them and need the rest of us to foot the bill.
Yes, modern economies are simply less labor-intensive now and it has become far more about entrepreneurialism and deployment of concentrated intellectual capital. That is just one of the many brakes / disincentives that are being placed on population growth.

The main problem is that procreation remains a primal urge, all out of proportion to its need. Thankfully, it's much, much less of a thing that society conspires to push. When I was young, I was personally indifferent at best to having offspring, but the societal pressure to have them was far more substantial, and I allowed my then-wife to push me into it, because "it's what you do", and it was what she felt the whole thrust of her existence was, and I was being "selfish", etc.

I think if I were young today I would feel much less social pressure and could reasonably hope, with a little selectivity, to find a like-minded wife. I would have had either zero or one child (even the stigma of the Only Child is now fading) rather than two.

Try being an older woman without kids. People ask me about my kids, I say I don't have any.

"Oh, you poor thing" they go. Or, they don't know what to talk about at all anymore.

The stigma is strong.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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27-01-2017, 09:04 AM
RE: Overpopulation
Much like guns which nobody should be allowed to own except me, the lot of you shouldn't be allowed to reproduce except me. Especially you, old lardass bastard. Tongue

#sigh
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27-01-2017, 09:30 AM
RE: Overpopulation
I have no kids, myself. My wife and I decided against having children. We're both quite happy with that decision. Overpopulation was really not part of our reasoning, though. We just don't think we'd be happy being parents, and had not ever really been financially stable enough to do so anyway. /shrug

Doing my part? In a round-about way lol
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27-01-2017, 10:01 AM
RE: Overpopulation
I have six children, I don't give a fuck if anybody views me and my family as a problem.
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