Oz Gov goes Anti-Antivaxer.
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13-04-2015, 03:50 PM
RE: Oz Gov goes Anti-Antivaxer.
(13-04-2015 02:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 05:07 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Gotta say, this was a surprise and a cool political move.
I think parents should have the choice.
If they fuck up their children then it takes that DNA line out of the gene pool.

I have no problems with people choosing not to take medicine.
Kids are the parent's responsibility, parenting is the parent's job not the government's.

It's not like medications. It endangers other people to have too many unvaccinated people around.

I don't care if they refuse vaccination, but they will have to be quarantined.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-04-2015, 03:55 PM
RE: Oz Gov goes Anti-Antivaxer.
(13-04-2015 03:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's not like medications. It endangers other people to have too many unvaccinated people around.

I don't care if they refuse vaccination, but they will have to be quarantined.
But if my family are all vaccinated aren't we then protected even if there is an outbreak amongst the unvaccinated kids at school?
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13-04-2015, 04:00 PM
RE: Oz Gov goes Anti-Antivaxer.
(13-04-2015 03:55 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 03:50 PM)Chas Wrote:  It's not like medications. It endangers other people to have too many unvaccinated people around.

I don't care if they refuse vaccination, but they will have to be quarantined.
But if my family are all vaccinated aren't we then protected even if there is an outbreak amongst the unvaccinated kids at school?

Sometimes if enough in the herd don't get their vaccinations, and an outbreak occurs, even people who have been immunized can still be susceptible. Happened with the measles outbreak in Disneyland earlier this year.

http://www.wired.com/2015/01/vaccinated-...accinated/

That's why it's so important for EVERYONE who is medically able to get their vaccines.
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13-04-2015, 04:26 PM (This post was last modified: 13-04-2015 04:33 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Oz Gov goes Anti-Antivaxer.
(13-04-2015 04:00 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  That's why it's so important for EVERYONE who is medically able to get their vaccines.
You can't really force people to have this though. Perhaps some private schools only admitting students who have been immunised.

And perhaps government puts more effort into public education of vaccinations and a response regarding the claims of anti-vaccination people.
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13-04-2015, 04:39 PM
RE: Oz Gov goes Anti-Antivaxer.
(13-04-2015 04:26 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 04:00 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  That's why it's so important for EVERYONE who is medically able to get their vaccines.
You can't really force people to have this though. Perhaps some private schools only admitting students who have been immunised.

And perhaps government puts more effort into public education of vaccinations and a response regarding the claims of anti-vaccination people.

You're right, I don't think any medical treatments can be forced on anyone. Unfortunately it's been shown that educating people about vaccinations does not change most anti-vaxxer's minds.

Laws like the one mentioned in the OP, as well as regulations that don't allow unvaccinated kids to attend public school and daycares are the best defense we can offer right now. Is there a reason you seem to be against this?
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13-04-2015, 04:42 PM
RE: Oz Gov goes Anti-Antivaxer.
(13-04-2015 11:00 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  Its a step in the right direction. I don't think its harsh enough. But ya know, better than nothing I guess.

Bigger restrictions on non complying parents would see some kids suffering from other issues....
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13-04-2015, 04:58 PM
RE: Oz Gov goes Anti-Antivaxer.
(13-04-2015 02:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 05:07 AM)DLJ Wrote:  Gotta say, this was a surprise and a cool political move.
I think parents should have the choice.
If they fuck up their children then it takes that DNA line out of the gene pool.

I have no problems with people choosing not to take medicine.
Kids are the parent's responsibility, parenting is the parent's job not the government's.

Except the kids don't have a choice in the matter and shouldn't suffer the consequences (death) because their parents are fucktards.

(13-04-2015 04:26 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 04:00 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  That's why it's so important for EVERYONE who is medically able to get their vaccines.
You can't really force people to have this though. Perhaps some private schools only admitting students who have been immunised.

And perhaps government puts more effort into public education of vaccinations and a response regarding the claims of anti-vaccination people.

They're not forcing people, they're saying if you want government help then you have to meet certain requirements. That's the same for any welfare. I'm on unemployment benefit currently because my hours at work are shit and part of that is turning up to some things some times or it would be cut.

They're not physically forcing me to go there but it's a choice, I go there and keep getting benefit or I don't and stop getting benefit.
Seems fair to me.
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13-04-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Oz Gov goes Anti-Antivaxer.
(13-04-2015 04:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 02:05 PM)Stevil Wrote:  I think parents should have the choice.
If they fuck up their children then it takes that DNA line out of the gene pool.

I have no problems with people choosing not to take medicine.
Kids are the parent's responsibility, parenting is the parent's job not the government's.

Except the kids don't have a choice in the matter and shouldn't suffer the consequences (death) because their parents are fucktards.
I understand what you are saying. But kids are the responsibility of the parents. If the parent choose to send them to private religious schools to learn all about fairytales then so be it.
If parents keep their kids at home to avoide beng corrupted by society, then so be it.
If parents choose to forgo medical treatment for their kids then so be it.
If parents want to spank their children then so be it.
At what point do we take away our choices as adults (parents) and let the government tell us how we are to bring up our own kids?

(13-04-2015 04:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  They're not forcing people, they're saying if you want government help then you have to meet certain requirements. That's the same for any welfare. I'm on unemployment benefit currently because my hours at work are shit and part of that is turning up to some things some times or it would be cut.

They're not physically forcing me to go there but it's a choice, I go there and keep getting benefit or I don't and stop getting benefit.
Seems fair to me.
They are coercing on a topic that is unrelated to the benefits offered.
It might make sense to ban unimmunised kids from public schools due to the potential danger to the other kids. But it makes no sense to hold back food money or other medical subsidies etc based on a parent's choice to not immunise their kids.
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13-04-2015, 06:16 PM
RE: Oz Gov goes Anti-Antivaxer.
(13-04-2015 05:26 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(13-04-2015 04:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Except the kids don't have a choice in the matter and shouldn't suffer the consequences (death) because their parents are fucktards.
I understand what you are saying. But kids are the responsibility of the parents. If the parent choose to send them to private religious schools to learn all about fairytales then so be it.
If parents keep their kids at home to avoide beng corrupted by society, then so be it.
If parents choose to forgo medical treatment for their kids then so be it.
If parents want to spank their children then so be it.
At what point do we take away our choices as adults (parents) and let the government tell us how we are to bring up our own kids?

(13-04-2015 04:58 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  They're not forcing people, they're saying if you want government help then you have to meet certain requirements. That's the same for any welfare. I'm on unemployment benefit currently because my hours at work are shit and part of that is turning up to some things some times or it would be cut.

They're not physically forcing me to go there but it's a choice, I go there and keep getting benefit or I don't and stop getting benefit.
Seems fair to me.
They are coercing on a topic that is unrelated to the benefits offered.
It might make sense to ban unimmunised kids from public schools due to the potential danger to the other kids. But it makes no sense to hold back food money or other medical subsidies etc based on a parent's choice to not immunise their kids.

Just because someone birthed another human being doesn't mean that person is going to make good decisions for the child.

I do think at a certain point the government should intervene on behalf of children. We are an evolved social species, whose survival depends on mutual and overall well being of the group. This means we have a vested interest in making sure the people of that society have a reasonable chance at a happy and healthy life. If a parent is criminally negligent in caring for their child, intervention should happen. I would think putting your kids and others not in your care in mortal danger, would be a scenario in which action is needed.

This topic in no way can be equated to choosing whether your kid goes to private school. There's a huge difference between different parenting styles, and actively harming your child and others. Now... Religious indoctrination, the harm in that could be debated.

The only way to decide these things is to look at the evidence of each topic. If a certain parenting style has been shown empirically to cause harm to the next generation of our society, we as a group have the right to decide if that's not the kind of society we want to be. When a person's only valid argument for wanting to not vaccinate or to be allowed to beat or molest their children whenever they want, is that we can't be allowed to take away their choice to do with their kids as they please.... That's no argument at all against the evidence.
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13-04-2015, 06:44 PM
RE: Oz Gov goes Anti-Antivaxer.
(13-04-2015 06:16 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  Just because someone birthed another human being doesn't mean that person is going to make good decisions for the child.
I agree with you on this point.
I just don't think it is government's duty to define what is good parenting and to interfere.
(13-04-2015 06:16 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  I do think at a certain point the government should intervene on behalf of children. We are an evolved social species, whose survival depends on mutual and overall well being of the group. This means we have a vested interest in making sure the people of that society have a reasonable chance at a happy and healthy life.
I don't necessarily agree with this. I don't think it is my duty to interfere in the lives of others.
(13-04-2015 06:16 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  If a parent is criminally negligent in caring for their child, intervention should happen.
"Criminally negligent" means that the law is already in place.
(13-04-2015 06:16 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  I would think putting your kids and others not in your care in mortal danger, would be a scenario in which action is needed.
Dangers are all around us. Taking your kid for a drive in the car is dangerous, not putting their seat belt on is dangerous, taking them into the sun is dangerous. Letting a toddler crawl on the road is dangerous.
At some point we either need to draw a line or let the parent's accept responsibility for their own kids. I am more for education and choice rather than enforced law.
(13-04-2015 06:16 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  This topic in no way can be equated to choosing whether your kid goes to private school.
If you are worried about your own kids being in danger because of un-immunised kids then you could choose a school which only accepts kids that have been immunised.

(13-04-2015 06:16 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  There's a huge difference between different parenting styles, and actively harming your child and others. Now... Religious indoctrination, the harm in that could be debated.
I just don't think it is my business to tell other parents how to raise their own children. whether I percieve it as harmful or not, it's not my business.

(13-04-2015 06:16 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  The only way to decide these things is to look at the evidence of each topic. If a certain parenting style has been shown empirically to cause harm to the next generation of our society, we as a group have the right to decide if that's not the kind of society we want to be.
I'm more for choice and personal responsibility. If TV is deemed harmful to children I don't want government legally restricting how much tv I let my child watch.
I want facts and information and as a parent I want to make the decisions for myself. I have no interest in making the decisions for other parents, I have no interest in supporting laws to tell other parents how to parent their own children.
(13-04-2015 06:16 PM)Smercury44 Wrote:  When a person's only valid argument for wanting to not vaccinate is that we can't be allowed to take away their choice to do with their kids as they please.... That's no argument at all against the evidence.
I think it is a very valid argument. It's not my place to force other parents to immunise their children.
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