Padre Pio - Fraud or not?
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23-01-2012, 11:05 AM
Padre Pio - Fraud or not?
Greeting brothers in no-faith, I come to You with a question regarding Padre Pio. Im having some family discusions regarding faith and religion, and I keep loosing when Padre Pio is being put up as example. All I know is he is believed to have faked his Stigma wounds using carbolic acid during his hospital service. Since my resources and knowledge is limited, is there any other sceptical material regarding him? Id like to know more before ending up in another discussion.
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23-01-2012, 11:20 AM
RE: Padre Pio - Fraud or not?
(23-01-2012 11:05 AM)iakhovas Wrote:  Greeting brothers in no-faith, I come to You with a question regarding Padre Pio. Im having some family discusions regarding faith and religion, and I keep loosing when Padre Pio is being put up as example. All I know is he is believed to have faked his Stigma wounds using carbolic acid during his hospital service. Since my resources and knowledge is limited, is there any other sceptical material regarding him? Id like to know more before ending up in another discussion.

He is a fraud - Google is your friend. e.g. Committee for Skeptical Inquiry

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-01-2012, 12:01 PM
RE: Padre Pio - Fraud or not?
If it's supernatural, it's BS. That's how you know.
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23-01-2012, 01:43 PM
RE: Padre Pio - Fraud or not?
(23-01-2012 11:20 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-01-2012 11:05 AM)iakhovas Wrote:  Greeting brothers in no-faith, I come to You with a question regarding Padre Pio. Im having some family discusions regarding faith and religion, and I keep loosing when Padre Pio is being put up as example. All I know is he is believed to have faked his Stigma wounds using carbolic acid during his hospital service. Since my resources and knowledge is limited, is there any other sceptical material regarding him? Id like to know more before ending up in another discussion.

He is a fraud - Google is your friend. e.g. Committee for Skeptical Inquiry

I found this CSI (lol) page already and read the material, I was wondering if this is considered valid. There are so many books, biographies etc with doctors witnessing strange phenomena with medical evidences of his condition and so on. I cant just compare one biography with this report stating that it is more accurate and probably true.
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23-01-2012, 03:50 PM
RE: Padre Pio - Fraud or not?
So... God is real because some guy's hands bled? Good logic right there.

a. He's a guy with a vested interest - not a good data source, 'cos he's biased.
b. He really does have wounds.

Is there really no other explanation they can think of for the wounds than God?

What do the wounds look like?
Could he have a disease which caused them?
Are they absolutely sure he didn't tamper? If the answer is that they trust him they need a smack.

Is he perhaps one of those odd sincerely deluded people one occasionally comes across? For example, maybe he has these bruises and they look like stigmata if you look at them right so he thinks "Well, I got stigmata but I'll just touch 'em up a bit before I show them to anyone else".

If they can rule out all of the above...

Does that leave God? Or doesn't it just leave "we are humans and we don't understand"? Why this is considered evidence for an invisible being with an obscene interest in sex and murder is completely beyond me.
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23-01-2012, 04:02 PM
RE: Padre Pio - Fraud or not?
besides...
Why would he have wounds in the palms of his hands. What does that have to do with the real Christ on the cross?

If there was such person he was nailed on the cross by his wrists, not his palms.

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Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
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24-01-2012, 04:09 AM
RE: Padre Pio - Fraud or not?
Padre Pio is fraud yes and/or no.

I completely acknowledge the observations made by Morondog and The_observer. If he did anything to cosmetically create or enhance his "stigmata", he is absolutely and undoubtedly a fraud. AND he got the place of the wounds wrong. He got the wounds as depicted in icons and statues, not anatomically correct.

However, I would like to propose a hypothesis that doesn't need him to be a fraud and it's also not supernatural.

I will take the example from hysterical pregnancies. To avoid misconceptions, being clinically hysterical does NOT mean that you laugh or cry uncontrollably and you need somebody to slap your face to snap you out of it. Hysterical people usually have clinical symptoms of diseases they do not have. It's severe enough that the patient may die of a deadly disease he never had (and the autopsy reveals it beyond any doubt).

To make a clear point, as I said, I chose the specific case of hysterical pregnancy. The woman is not pregnant, but deep inside her brain she is so irrationally sure that she is, that her body starts producing the symptoms: menstrual irregularity, cervix becomes softer, she has all the hormonal signs (so she tests positive in urine tests), her breasts become tender, she starts lactating and YES, her belly size increases just like it would if she were really pregnant (under anesthesia the belly goes back to a normal, non-pregnant size very quickly). 1% of the patients take it far enough to have a fake labor, complete with pain and contractions. Every possible symptom except a fetus. It all happens in the brain, but it's convincing enough that, in the first trimester, they are diagnosed as pregnant by non-suspecting doctors.

A sick or, in this case, a faith-sick brain can produce any symptoms within reasonable limits. You will ask me: skin conditions too? Yes. Patients who "simulated" diseases with specific skin conditions, produced the symptoms perfectly: spots, discoloration, boils, blemishes, ulceration, anything. The more informed the patient is about the disease, the better the symptoms will fit the fake disease. And yes, Padre Pio was sure that the stigmata need to appear in the palms and back of his hands, under and on top of his feet. Sure enough, that's where he got them, not in the wrists and ankle joints. X-Rays also revealed no damage in the bone and muscular structure. Just skin conditions, self-inflicted or not. It doesn't mater if he was a fraud or not. It has possible natural explanations even if his skin ulceration occurred all by itself.

Oh, no Hallucinations 4:11 says the 'gilded sheep should be stewed in rat blood' but Morons 5:16 contradicts it. (Chas)

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24-01-2012, 05:25 AM
RE: Padre Pio - Fraud or not?
(23-01-2012 04:02 PM)The_observer Wrote:  besides...
Why would he have wounds in the palms of his hands. What does that have to do with the real Christ on the cross?

If there was such person he was nailed on the cross by his wrists, not his palms.

These are the same people who say the Shroud of Turin is authentic, where, (as was pointed out above), the wounds were in the WRISTS. Woops.

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Isaiah 45:7 "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things" (KJV)

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24-01-2012, 07:11 AM
RE: Padre Pio - Fraud or not?
Ok so we are able to explain the stigmata, but how about the dozens of healing administered to many patients? Blind girl without her eye pupils managed to see after visiting him, some actress praying for her lover to survive, some guy with crippled leg walking after visiting him and so forth. there are many cases like this reported in many books/biographies.

Id say besides the fact that the body could regenerate by itself it had to be just made up in a nice looking story to convince his followers hes a wonderman.Any thoughts on that?
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24-01-2012, 07:50 AM
RE: Padre Pio - Fraud or not?
(24-01-2012 07:11 AM)iakhovas Wrote:  Ok so we are able to explain the stigmata, but how about the dozens of healing administered to many patients? Blind girl without her eye pupils managed to see after visiting him, some actress praying for her lover to survive, some guy with crippled leg walking after visiting him and so forth. there are many cases like this reported in many books/biographies.

Id say besides the fact that the body could regenerate by itself it had to be just made up in a nice looking story to convince his followers hes a wonderman.Any thoughts on that?

OK. For a start I would check sources on this. Like, who's reporting that the blind girl saw? And how blind was she before vs after. If you're gonna claim something like this, it's got to go under scrutiny, 'cos that's a first rate medical technique Smile

So:
1. Who reports this? Is it someone with a vested interest? Can we confirm with independent reports?
2. Who is the girl? Is she available to talk to, or is this "I heard a blind girl was cured by him once."
3. Actress praying for her lover to survive... She prays, he survives, she says "it's because of God". Not because of doctors? Not because of his strong immune system?
4. Crippled leg does not imply inability to walk and sometimes there can be a certain amount of social pressure to fake it. So I'd be interested to know:
a. who reported this?
b. was the guy really crippled?
c. Is he still cured or did he fake it?

I remember at uni one of my friends got into faith healing and miracles and such, went to the local hospital to pray for people and came back with his face all shining. "They were leaping out of the beds" he beamed... I said "Are you sure they're cured, let's go back and see"... and he magically shut up.

I think your guess is right though. He or his supporters are spreading these stories to make him sound more plausible. You can usually tell if something's bullshit by the amount of energy people are willing to put into trying to make you believe it - in this case, they want you to believe that Padre Pio is a miracle man, so they come up with lots of stories of miracles.

If they really were curing people there should be lots of backing up evidence easily available and they shouldn't care too much if you don't believe - after all this dude is doing miracles, it'll hit the headlines soon enough and they're meantime doing good work.

On the other hand if the point of the exercise is not to cure people but to get you to believe in Padre Pio / God, then they'll devote a *lot* of time and energy to relentlessly affirming that these miracles have occurred and are genuine miracles, they will *care* if people debunk them because if enough people get the idea that he's a charlatan then they're sunk (only true charlatans care about people's opinions like this), and requests for any normal type of evidence will be stone walled - like for example if you asked for the name of the blind girl, or to see a faith healing in progress, they'd give you some "her privacy must be protected" line, or "she was just a random, came one day, left the next", and say something like "the presence of skeptics screws up the faith healing".
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