Palestine and statehood
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30-11-2012, 09:05 AM
Palestine and statehood
I want to start a discussion on the events that occurred yesterday at the general assembly of the united nation. Palestine was granted the status of non-member observer state.
The vote taken was 138 votes form, 9 against and 41 abstentions.
United states, Canada, Israel, Czech republic and some pacific island states voted against.

My own view

Reciprocity

on the situation is that Palestine is finally going the non-violent route to reaching statehood. This is the same direction Israel attempted and won statehood with.

History

The question of who was there first is absurd in my opinion. The Jewish people were obviously there "first" since if we categorize "people" by their faith that is the answer since Islam was created in 600 CE (ish) and Judaism is older than that then of course then Jews have a older religion then Islam. But is is absurd because if Caucasians were told to go back to Europe from North America do you think there would be such an majority of the UN voting for that?

The violence

Well one has to do a simple Google search to view that since the 21st century there is a 1 Israeli to 6 Palestinians killed in the conflict.
With the completion of iron dome one has to assume that the death toll of the Israeli will even more so significantly diminish.

My understanding of the no side

Surrounded by Arabs

So Israel is surrounded by Arab countries that don't believe in it's existence. yeah it might be a lil scary but how much military power does Israel possess with US backing it. (answer a whole lot military power)

History

War of 1967 (hope I got that date right) - yeah as explained Muslim don't like the Jews there

Xenophobia/warranted xenophobia

Muslims kill people over cartoons of their prophet

If you are anti-Palestinian state and you think i didn't explain your reasoning correctly please do. If you want to add please do. Any thoughts
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30-11-2012, 10:18 AM
RE: Palestine and statehood
You are generally correct so far.

However one can't technically say jews were in Israel first because being jewish implies a religion not a race or ethnicity.

The vote in the U.N. is a step in the right direction for the Palestine leadership, however if they are able to become a nation that doesn't mean that Israel will stop shitting all over them or that the U.N. will help out in such a situation.
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30-11-2012, 11:22 AM
RE: Palestine and statehood
Technically the Canaanites were there before the Israelites split themselves off and created a new religion. If the Palestinians cannot trace their ethnicity to Canaan, then I think they need to back the fuck off.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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30-11-2012, 03:44 PM
RE: Palestine and statehood
(30-11-2012 11:22 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Technically the Canaanites were there before the Israelites split themselves off and created a new religion. If the Palestinians cannot trace their ethnicity to Canaan, then I think they need to back the fuck off.
On fridays I trace my roots to the bar, at some points in history it splits off into a strip club.

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30-11-2012, 04:05 PM
Palestine and statehood
(30-11-2012 03:44 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(30-11-2012 11:22 AM)Erxomai Wrote:  Technically the Canaanites were there before the Israelites split themselves off and created a new religion. If the Palestinians cannot trace their ethnicity to Canaan, then I think they need to back the fuck off.
On fridays I trace my roots to the bar, at some points in history it splits off into a strip club.

Drinking Beverage

That's silly. Why wouldn't you dye your roots before you go?

"All that is necessary for the triumph of Calvinism is that good Atheists do nothing." ~Eric Oh My
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30-11-2012, 05:46 PM
RE: Palestine and statehood
Quote:The question of who was there first is absurd in my opinion. The Jewish
people were obviously there "first" since if we categorize "people" by
their faith that is the answer since Islam was created in 600 CE (ish)
and Judaism is older than that then of course then Jews have a older
religion then Islam. But is is absurd because if Caucasians were told to
go back to Europe from North America do you think there would be such
an majority of the UN voting for that?

History Lesson: (because it's amazing how many people don't know this)

This goes back to WW1. It's irrelevant who was there back 1,000 years ago because the Jews never had claim until Zionism in the 1800's anyway. And the Arabs were just always there.

Que WW1. During WW1, it was Germany/Austria-Hungry/Ottoman Empire v Britain/France/Russia (and later US).
The allies were pretty desperate, Russia was getting it's as handed to them and the western front was a hell hold slaughter.
SO, the UK wanted to attack "the soft under belly" of the Central Powers which was the Ottoman Empire.
The Ottomans were pretty fucking weak at the time compared to what they use to be and even before the war had ended the UK was scheming with France in how to split up the middle east/ (I believe France got Syria, UK got Iraq, and other places would become protectorates of the two powers). This is also how Italy was dragged into the war on the side of the Allies even though it was a very pro-central power nation, because huge land in Africa I believe, was promised to them. (which kinda backfired a little in WW2 because that's why the African war was a thing because half owned by Italy, half by France and UK) anyway, the Ottoman Empire was made up of two major cultures. The Turks, and the Arabs. There was huge tension between the two and neither liked each other and wanted out. Insert why Palestine is a thing here. There was a man who's name has slipped my mind (something Husan)who was an Arab. He approached the UK (not the other way around) and said that if the UK would support an independent Arab nation, he would fight the Ottomans for the UK.
Taking the opportunity and seeing a good distraction when one is presented the Brits agreed.
Without this Arab force the Allies would never been able to attack the Ottomans and likely would have lost the war.

Skip a bit of time and it's clear Russia is gonna get defeated. The UK is convinced that America is needed or else the allies will lose the war. But America wont budge seeming it has ties to both factions.
SO, insert Israel. There at the time was a huge Jewish population that was very very powerful.
The UK decided to sway this population by supporting an independent Jewish state.
The Jews agree and the US enters the war just as the Russians get raped in the ass with a cactus.
The Russians drop out of the war and become communist. They also release all secret dealings between the allies which is highly embarrassing for the UK.

Skip till the end of the war.
The allies get together and decide how to split up the Ottoman empire. Ignoring their promises they pretty much split it up how they wanted to begin with.
(And this is where my history gets hazzy)
Jews all migrate to Palestine. Dude that lead the Arabs against the Ottomans claims the area as promised to him. Jews claim it as theirs. Insert civil war here. Jews win, arabs move out, jews move in.
Insert end of ww2 here. Israel is formed. Arabs still claim it as theirs.

And thus why there is a shit storm around that whole area.

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30-11-2012, 05:54 PM
Re: Palestine and statehood
Israel would be in contempt of the same laws that begot the gulf war if Palestine had statehood... The US couldn't possibly allow for that now could they.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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01-12-2012, 04:06 PM
RE: Palestine and statehood
Some current facts:

Israel collects the Pallies taxes for the PLO, not the PLO.
Israel provides water for the Pallies, not the PLO.
Israel provides electricity for the Pallies, not the PLO.

All that while my dad pays a huge electricity bill every 2 months and the Pallies who think they have a state pay very little, if they pay something (which I bet they don't).

As long as they can't collect their own taxes by themselves (and who's talking about producing their own electricity), they can't have a sovereign state. Even not when the UN says so.
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01-12-2012, 08:54 PM
RE: Palestine and statehood
(01-12-2012 04:06 PM)shiranl Wrote:  Some current facts:

Israel collects the Pallies taxes for the PLO, not the PLO.
Israel provides water for the Pallies, not the PLO.
Israel provides electricity for the Pallies, not the PLO.

All that while my dad pays a huge electricity bill every 2 months and the Pallies who think they have a state pay very little, if they pay something (which I bet they don't).

As long as they can't collect their own taxes by themselves (and who's talking about producing their own electricity), they can't have a sovereign state. Even not when the UN says so.
An Israeli complaining about Palestinians not paying for their electricity is like a rapist complaining about having a sore dick.

You are down with Palestinians having their own state right?

Why can't they collect their own taxes? oh yeah that's right, because they live in an open prison and are fucking poor...

Have you ever studied old colonial rule and how colonial rule over other peoples worked?
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02-12-2012, 05:22 AM (This post was last modified: 02-12-2012 06:10 AM by shiranl.)
RE: Palestine and statehood
(01-12-2012 08:54 PM)I and I Wrote:  
(01-12-2012 04:06 PM)shiranl Wrote:  Some current facts:



Israel collects the Pallies taxes for the PLO, not the PLO.

Israel provides water for the Pallies, not the PLO.

Israel provides electricity for the Pallies, not the PLO.



All that while my dad pays a huge electricity bill every 2 months and the Pallies who think they have a state pay very little, if they pay something (which I bet they don't).



As long as they can't collect their own taxes by themselves (and who's talking about producing their own electricity), they can't have a sovereign state. Even not when the UN says so.
An Israeli complaining about Palestinians not paying for their electricity is like a rapist complaining about having a sore dick.



You are down with Palestinians having their own state right?



Why can't they collect their own taxes? oh yeah that's right, because they live in an open prison and are fucking poor...



Have you ever studied old colonial rule and how colonial rule over other peoples worked?

Poor? you mean after the aid from the EU, USA, UN and Arab Leage- they are poor? give me a break. Abu Mazen lives in a palace, not a refugee camp.

Everything that you have just said doesn't change the fact that a sovereign state needs its own infrastructure, and right now they use Israel's for free. So, even so the UN says so, they are not a state, not even close to it. When they'll start buliding their own power plants, than they can start talking about a state.
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