Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard
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09-05-2016, 12:14 AM
RE: Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard
(08-05-2016 11:34 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 09:52 PM)Banjo Wrote:  No IT IS NOT!

Read the freaking bible Alla. From beginning to end.

You are too ignorant to offer an opinion. Especially as a woman, as the bible commands.

1st Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1st Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


You even being here is a sin!

2nd Chronicles19:2 And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD? therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD .
what you said is just so, so stupid, pastor. Rolleyes

Quoting the bible to a "xian" is stupid? Please explain in more detail.

Remember, Jesus did not create a church. So the earth is god's church. His being omniscient and all.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
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09-05-2016, 12:29 AM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2016 12:38 AM by Alla.)
RE: Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard
TO DEBNA 27


Jesus was not teaching about equal pay for unequal work.
Jesus was teaching about Kingdom of God and how it works.
This is what AN ATHEIST as yourself can learn from this lesson of Jesus Christ:

Did you notice that only the first guys had an agreement about the price for their work?
Did you notice that the other guys didn't even ask about the price for their work?
Jesus said interesting thing to those who complained(to the first ones) : is thine eye evil, because I am GOOD?

So, you agreed to work for a penny a day. You got paid to what you agreed. It is FAIR.
But the other guys just agreed to work WITHOUT knowing the price. I REWARDED them for DOING THIS. For agreeing to work without asking the price.
If you agreed to work for me and you didn't even ask the price for your work I want to be GOOD to you. I want to REWARD you.
Question: if that penny was = THE PRICE FOR THE WORK + REWARD how much did Lord pay for the work(what part of a penny?) and how much was the reward(what part of a penny)? Smile

P.S. And yes, this is also about forgiveness. But I will not explain why because it is not relevant for an atheist.

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09-05-2016, 12:36 AM
RE: Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard
(08-05-2016 09:52 PM)Banjo Wrote:  You even being here is a sin!
This is stupid, not you quoting the Bible, pastor. Smile

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09-05-2016, 12:38 AM
RE: Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard
(09-05-2016 12:36 AM)Alla Wrote:  
(08-05-2016 09:52 PM)Banjo Wrote:  You even being here is a sin!
This is stupid, not you quoting the Bible, pastor. Smile

So, you disagree with scripture?

Perhaps there is hope for you yet.

You should read the bible Alla. If you are indeed who you claim to be. Learn what the thing says. If I can do it, you can do it.

It took me longer to read War and peace. And that was a good book!

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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09-05-2016, 12:39 AM
RE: Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard
(09-05-2016 12:38 AM)Banjo Wrote:  
(09-05-2016 12:36 AM)Alla Wrote:  This is stupid, not you quoting the Bible, pastor. Smile

So, you disagree with scripture?

Perhaps there is hope for you yet.

You should read the bible Alla. If you are indeed who you claim to be. Learn what the thing says. If I can do it, you can do it.

It took me longer to read War and peace. And that was a good book!
Rolleyes

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09-05-2016, 02:11 PM
RE: Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard
(09-05-2016 12:29 AM)Alla Wrote:  TO DEBNA 27


Jesus was not teaching about equal pay for unequal work.
Jesus was teaching about Kingdom of God and how it works.
This is what AN ATHEIST as yourself can learn from this lesson of Jesus Christ:

Did you notice that only the first guys had an agreement about the price for their work?
Did you notice that the other guys didn't even ask about the price for their work?
Jesus said interesting thing to those who complained(to the first ones) : is thine eye evil, because I am GOOD?

So, you agreed to work for a penny a day. You got paid to what you agreed. It is FAIR.
But the other guys just agreed to work WITHOUT knowing the price. I REWARDED them for DOING THIS. For agreeing to work without asking the price.
If you agreed to work for me and you didn't even ask the price for your work I want to be GOOD to you. I want to REWARD you.
Question: if that penny was = THE PRICE FOR THE WORK + REWARD how much did Lord pay for the work(what part of a penny?) and how much was the reward(what part of a penny)? Smile

P.S. And yes, this is also about forgiveness. But I will not explain why because it is not relevant for an atheist.

I understand your point, and I think the part about being only concerned with the fulfillment of your own contract is valid. My biggest problem with that is, like Paleophyte pointed out, when it's a group working together, the amount of work each person does impacts the work that the others have to do. I suppose it's not strictly unfair for some people to get a higher wage per hour since they worked for fewer hours, but the sense of injustice and inequality is doubtlessly still there whether or not it's legitimate.
I also don't think it's practical or commendable to agree to work for someone without sorting out payment beforehand. I understand the idealism behind it (you should care less about your own benefit and more about helping others) but in the long run it's both risky and naive.
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09-05-2016, 02:15 PM
RE: Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard
(08-05-2016 06:19 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote: The lesson that my teacher was emphasizing was that I shouldn't compare my rewards/grades to those around me, and I should just do my best and be happy with what I earn from it (it was obviously a Christian school).


Xtianity is a religion for slaves. It's message is always: "STFU. Do what you're told. You'll get your reward in heaven.


Meanwhile, we'll just clean up down here."

Screw jesusism.

What Minimalist said
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09-05-2016, 02:38 PM (This post was last modified: 09-05-2016 02:44 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard
(08-05-2016 05:55 PM)debna27 Wrote:  So I've been dealing with a lot of stress at my job lately, some of which is because I feel like certain people do a lot more of the work than others even though we're all paid the same rate. I know this is quite a common issue, and when I was thinking about it the other day I remembered having a similar complaint in high school regarding group projects. When I talked to one of my teachers about it, he reminded me of the parable in Matthew 20 in which a man hires workers throughout the day and gives the same wage to those who worked all day as to those who only worked for an hour. The lesson that my teacher was emphasizing was that I shouldn't compare my rewards/grades to those around me, and I should just do my best and be happy with what I earn from it (it was obviously a Christian school). I've also heard this parable applied to accepting Christ, that those who convert late in life get the same reward (heaven) as the life-long believers.

I remember being really unsatisfied deep down with the message that this parable was teaching. At the time, I thought this was just my sin nature, which Jesus was trying to teach me to fight against. Now, I obviously think rather differently. I'm rather torn on the overall message though. It seems hugely unjust for one person to do several times as much work as another and both receive the same payment; but, on the other hand, if someone agrees to a certain contract only to see someone else get a better one, I suppose there's not much room for complaint. Is this thinking erroneous/a vestige of religious mentality? Do any of you have any opinions on the morality of this message?

(Also, I feel like I should point out that I know that the Bible isn't a reliable source from which to take one's morals, even though a good percentage of the society in which we live often does that exact thing. However, I do think that there are some ideas in it that are interesting to consider from a philosophical standpoint, which is why I'm bothering to bring this up at all).

It should be said the parable has nothing to do with lazy vineyard workers, just the times in which they were hired.

An analogy would be if I need help moving, and I asked you if you'd help me move for 20$. Midway through moving I realize I needed more help, and hired others who agreed to help for 20$ as well. They worked as hard during the time they worked a you did. Or in you class project example, someone who was added to the class later, and as result added to you group somewhere in the middle, but worked as hard as everybody else during the time he was a part of the group, receiving the same grade.

None of these example like the parable, are about the work ethic of the employee, and not even a gripe about the wage itself, but resentment towards those given to equally. And like the prodigal son, a parable expanding on the Christian concept of unmerited grace.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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09-05-2016, 03:50 PM
RE: Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard
(09-05-2016 02:38 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It should be said the parable has nothing to do with lazy vineyard workers, just the times in which they were hired.

An analogy would be if I need help moving, and I asked you if you'd help me move for 20$. Midway through moving I realize I needed more help, and hired others who agreed to help for 20$ as well. They worked as hard during the time they worked a you did. Or in you class project example, someone who was added to the class later, and as result added to you group somewhere in the middle, but worked as hard as everybody else during the time he was a part of the group, receiving the same grade.

None of these example like the parable, are about the work ethic of the employee, and not even a gripe about the wage itself, but resentment towards those given to equally. And like the prodigal son, a parable expanding on the Christian concept of unmerited grace.


Tomasia.

From what you have written above, I do not think you properly understand the time period. Some research into the Roman empire and how it worked may help. Too much information for me to offer now as I am readying myself for an appointment. (Just having a coffee first while reading the forum)

I also disagree with your definition of the term "Unmerited grace" and turned to a xian page I know to copy and paste the basic idea. (No time to write my own thoughts)

Anyway, here is the basic outline followed by a link to the page.

Cheers.

"Grace is Unmerited Favor" - This Common Definition is Wrong
There are a few key words in the Bible that are given wrong definitions even though the definitions are widely accepted. Such wrong definitions created much confusion and a weak church. Grace is commonly defined as "God's unmerited favor to man". We even go into greater length to differentiate grace from mercy. Grace is defined as the getting the blessings/favors that we do not deserve and Mercy as NOT getting the punishments that we deserved.

With such fine definitions, we deceived ourselves that we have good and deep understanding of the terms of Grace and Mercy.

However, the definition of Grace as unmerited favor is wrong. I used to define grace as making up of two parts - unmerited and power. But after hearing James Ryle (Truthworks.org) preaching in Grace Chapel (gracechapel.net) on 23 Jul 2006 "Living a Legacy Part 4", I have to drop the unmerited part and just keep the power part. The unmerited part comes from God's mercy and need not be repeated in grace. In Tit 1:4, the benediction from Paul is "Grace, Mercy and Peace". (which matches well with 2Tim1:7 7 for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control).


The page.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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10-05-2016, 05:59 AM
RE: Parable of the Laborers in the Vineyard
(09-05-2016 03:50 PM)Banjo Wrote:  From what you have written above, I do not think you properly understand the time period. Some research into the Roman empire and how it worked may help. Too much information for me to offer now as I am readying myself for an appointment. (Just having a coffee first while reading the forum)

If you want to appeal to the historical setting to offer a competing interpretation of the parable I'm all ears. I'm aware of the historical setting, it doesn't particularly alter the meaning of the parable, particularly in what's a more important determiner here, and that's context, the relationship with other parables, and thematics of this particular Gospel.

But there are some facts reserved exclusively to this parable. The only distinguishing aspects of the different workers, were the time in which they were hired, not their work ethics. In fact the times in which they were hired, wasn't even their doing. This was the point being illustrated by my analogies.

But if you have a competing interpretation of the parable you'd like to offer, with the context of the parable, the history of the time period, I'm open to hearing it.


Quote:I also disagree with your definition of the term "Unmerited grace" and turned to a xian page I know to copy and paste the basic idea. (No time to write my own thoughts)

You may disagree, but it's a concept agreed upon by all the major bodies of Christianity (Catholics, Protestants, and Eastern Orthodox), and is one the most significant aspects of Christian theology as a whole, derived from he NT writings as a whole, illustrated by parables such as the prodigal son, etc....

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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