Paranormal experience & deconversion
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18-03-2013, 07:18 PM
Question Paranormal experience & deconversion
I currently do not know what I believe. The documentary "Religulous" has had me questioning somethings (I'm catholic) and I have been doing various reading on athesim, but that being said....I think the one thing that will make it hardest for me to fall away from faith in an afterlife is an experience I had with an ouiji board in high school. I've tried to research how an atheist might explain away what happened but I'm just having a hard time buying bull like "your twitches move it" (??)

Anyways, I'll never forget how bad the experience freaked me out. It only took a couple of minutes for something to communicate with us. The hand piece started moving quickly. We watched it letter by letter and sounded it out together....I can tell you with 100% percent certainty that our fingers were lightly touching the thing and it was not us that was moving it!

The entity spelled out my name (wrong, too) and told me to go away several times. It also said we would all marry faggots. When we told it to say goodbye it went back and forth N-O N-O N-O several times and when we asked who it was the board spelled out SATAN. It then said HAHAHAHA and finally moved to "goodbye"

Can someone please help explain this to me? While I see that there are inconsistancies in the bible and I'm all for rational thinking I just do not understand this! Are there atheists who believe in ghosts? How else could you explain this?
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18-03-2013, 11:06 PM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(18-03-2013 07:18 PM)crazylikeyou Wrote:  I currently do not know what I believe. The documentary "Religulous" has had me questioning somethings (I'm catholic) and I have been doing various reading on athesim, but that being said....I think the one thing that will make it hardest for me to fall away from faith in an afterlife is an experience I had with an ouiji board in high school. I've tried to research how an atheist might explain away what happened but I'm just having a hard time buying bull like "your twitches move it" (??)

It isn't "bull"... you can move muscles without thinking about it or feeling it, such as your heart is doing this very second. It's called the idiomotor effect, and I saw it demonstrated very cleverly by a couple of skeptics -- they had a group wear blindfolds, then they turned the board upside-down and had the participants play with the blindfolds on. The players still called out the letters that they thought they were moving over, and it's clear that they were trying to spell things themselves while they clearly were not. Additionally, they were trying to contact a celebrity's ghost, and the skeptics had them ask questions that the ghost would know but the participants didn't, and of course no answer was forthcoming.

Even if you thought that demons were involved, causation would be impossible to prove here. How would you observe a demon "doing" anything? You can't do it without begging the question (assuming the conclusion first as a premise to proving the conclusion, that is, assuming that demons move the paddle so that paddle movement becomes evidence of demon involvement).

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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18-03-2013, 11:50 PM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
The power of suggestion can be mighty strong. You already have preconceived ideas of ouija board behavior. Similar to hypnosis, your suggestions can work through your subconscious. Like starcrash mentioned, your muscle can move involuntarily or subconsciously.
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18-03-2013, 11:56 PM (This post was last modified: 18-03-2013 11:59 PM by WeAreTheCosmos.)
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(18-03-2013 07:18 PM)crazylikeyou Wrote:  I can tell you with 100% percent certainty that our fingers were lightly touching the thing and it was not us that was moving it!
You are not ready...

I used to purposely spell things just to mess with the other people involved... There are no spirits or ghosts involved. Even when all parties are truly innocent of intent, simply looking toward the next suspected letter may draw your hands there subconsciously. I'm pretty sure if you had a tech monitor muscle stimulation you would find that you and/or the other parties arms were moving the piece, and not the other way around.
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19-03-2013, 03:25 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
Human beings (such as your friend, for instance) are capable of deceit and trickery. Even those in whom we invest the whole of our trust. Unfortunately for us, we are entirely incapable of being 100% certain of their intentions or secret motives by simply looking at them. Just ask any husband or wife who'd been married for decades to a partner who had been unfaithful during the entire course of their marriage. There is not a single person alive who is incapable of deceit. Thus, you can not possibly "know with 100% certainty" that it was not your friend moving the whateverthefuck.

As long as that posibility remains open; you cannot conclude with certainty that "demons" were influencing your movements.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto! Ridi del duol, che t'avvelena il cor!
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19-03-2013, 04:10 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 03:25 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Human beings (such as your friend, for instance) are capable of deceit and trickery. Even those in whom we invest the whole of our trust. Unfortunately for us, we are entirely incapable of being 100% certain of their intentions or secret motives by simply looking at them. Just ask any husband or wife who'd been married for decades to a partner who had been unfaithful during the entire course of their marriage. There is not a single person alive who is incapable of deceit. Thus, you can not possibly "know with 100% certainty" that it was not your friend moving the whateverthefuck.

As long as that posibility remains open; you cannot conclude with certainty that "demons" were influencing your movements.

Just becuase someone you trust is capable of deciet isn't enough cause for you to assume they deceived you. I find your post perplexing because although it contains wisdom, you haven't shown that wisdom actually applies to this specific situation.

KingsChosen is a lying douchebag
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19-03-2013, 04:13 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 04:10 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 03:25 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Human beings (such as your friend, for instance) are capable of deceit and trickery. Even those in whom we invest the whole of our trust. Unfortunately for us, we are entirely incapable of being 100% certain of their intentions or secret motives by simply looking at them. Just ask any husband or wife who'd been married for decades to a partner who had been unfaithful during the entire course of their marriage. There is not a single person alive who is incapable of deceit. Thus, you can not possibly "know with 100% certainty" that it was not your friend moving the whateverthefuck.

As long as that posibility remains open; you cannot conclude with certainty that "demons" were influencing your movements.

Just becuase someone you trust is capable of deciet isn't enough cause for you to assume they deceived you. I find your post perplexing because although it contains wisdom, you haven't shown that wisdom actually applies to this specific situation.
Negs. I shall disregard accordingly. Drinking Beverage

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19-03-2013, 04:30 AM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2013 04:35 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 04:13 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 04:10 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Just becuase someone you trust is capable of deciet isn't enough cause for you to assume they deceived you. I find your post perplexing because although it contains wisdom, you haven't shown that wisdom actually applies to this specific situation.
Negs. I shall disregard accordingly. Drinking Beverage

The people who gave me negative rep are also capable of deceit and trickery, yet regardless of that capability you still trust them. Thank you for proving my point.

KingsChosen is a lying douchebag
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19-03-2013, 04:35 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 04:30 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 04:13 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Negs. I shall disregard accordingly. Drinking Beverage

The people who gave me negative rep are also capable of deceit, yet regardless of that capability you still trust them. Thank you for proving my point.
Trust, yes. Trust is much different from certainty.

Better luck next time. Thumbsup

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto! Ridi del duol, che t'avvelena il cor!
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19-03-2013, 04:43 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 04:35 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 04:30 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The people who gave me negative rep are also capable of deceit, yet regardless of that capability you still trust them. Thank you for proving my point.
Trust, yes. Trust is much different from certainty.

Better luck next time. Thumbsup

Trust is the firm belief in the reliabilty, truth, ability, or strength of someone or some thing. Certainty is the firm belief that something is the case. There is not much diffefence between trust and certainty so your claim above is clearly errant.


Again, thanks for proving my point.

KingsChosen is a lying douchebag
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