Paranormal experience & deconversion
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19-03-2013, 04:52 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 04:43 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 04:35 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Trust, yes. Trust is much different from certainty.

Better luck next time. Thumbsup

Trust is the firm belief in the reliabilty, truth, ability, or strength of someone or some thing. Certainty is the firm belief that something is the case. There is not much diffefence between trust and certainty so your claim above is clearly errant.


Again, thanks for proving my point.
And I trust in my certainty that your actions (present circumstances included) are those of a troll.

Again, I shall disregard them as such.

Thank for playing!

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19-03-2013, 04:57 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 04:52 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 04:43 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Trust is the firm belief in the reliabilty, truth, ability, or strength of someone or some thing. Certainty is the firm belief that something is the case. There is not much diffefence between trust and certainty so your claim above is clearly errant.


Again, thanks for proving my point.
And I trust in my certainty that your actions (present circumstances included) are those of a troll.

Again, I shall disregard them as such.

Thank for playing!

If by troll you mean I expose errors in your thinking then yes I am that.

You see you don't further you case by calling me a troll. You only further your case by defending your position. You have failed to defend your position. Go and hang your head in shame.
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19-03-2013, 05:02 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 04:57 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 04:52 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  And I trust in my certainty that your actions (present circumstances included) are those of a troll.

Again, I shall disregard them as such.

Thank for playing!

If by troll you mean I expose errors in your thinking then yes I am that.

You see you don't further you case by calling me a troll. You only further your case by defending your position. You have failed to defend your position. Go and hang your head in shame.
Actually, by "troll" I meant an individual who argues against an argument I never made in the first place. Then proceeds to dance around like he's beat me, when there was never a valid battle.

You see, I never said the OP should assume that their friend was deceiving them. You came up with that entirely on your own. I simply stated that it was a possibility, and that because of that possibility, OP could not rationally conclude "demons" as the cause of his/her experience; being that the other possibilities had not been ruled out.

But, being a troll, you altered my point ever so slightly so as to lure me into a downward-spiral; making fallacious argument after fallacious argument; hoping I'd run around in circles and twist myself into a tight enough knot to allow you to safely declare that you'd "won".

Sorry, bub. Didn't work, because your premise was blatantly false to begin with. Once again: thanks for playing. Smile

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19-03-2013, 05:21 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 05:02 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 04:57 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If by troll you mean I expose errors in your thinking then yes I am that.

You see you don't further you case by calling me a troll. You only further your case by defending your position. You have failed to defend your position. Go and hang your head in shame.
Actually, by "troll" I meant an individual who argues against an argument I never made in the first place. Then proceeds to dance around like he's beat me, when there was never a valid battle.

You see, I never said the OP should assume that their friend was deceiving them. You came up with that entirely on your own. I simply stated that it was a possibility, and that because of that possibility, OP could not rationally conclude "demons" as the cause of his/her experience; being that the other possibilities had not been ruled out.

But, being a troll, you altered my point ever so slightly so as to lure me into a downward-spiral; making fallacious argument after fallacious argument; hoping I'd run around in circles and twist myself into a tight enough knot to allow you to safely declare that you'd "won".

Sorry, bub. Didn't work, because your premise was blatantly false to begin with. Once again: thanks for playing. Smile

Don't be silly, I argued that since their friend was capable of deceit, that wasn't enough cause to assume they decieved. That was in response to your claim that you cannot conclude with certainty that
demons were influencing your movements because the participants are capable of deception. You put demons in quotes as if they were a device of fantasty. You assumed it could not be demons so therefore the movement of the pointer must have been the result friend.

Don't try to pussyfoot out of it now.
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19-03-2013, 05:23 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 05:21 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 05:02 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Actually, by "troll" I meant an individual who argues against an argument I never made in the first place. Then proceeds to dance around like he's beat me, when there was never a valid battle.

You see, I never said the OP should assume that their friend was deceiving them. You came up with that entirely on your own. I simply stated that it was a possibility, and that because of that possibility, OP could not rationally conclude "demons" as the cause of his/her experience; being that the other possibilities had not been ruled out.

But, being a troll, you altered my point ever so slightly so as to lure me into a downward-spiral; making fallacious argument after fallacious argument; hoping I'd run around in circles and twist myself into a tight enough knot to allow you to safely declare that you'd "won".

Sorry, bub. Didn't work, because your premise was blatantly false to begin with. Once again: thanks for playing. Smile

Don't be silly, I argued that since their friend was capable of deceit, that wasn't enough cause to assume they decieved. That was in response to your claim that you cannot conclude with certainty that
demons were influencing your movements because the participants are capable of deception. You put demons in quotes as if they were a device of fantasty. You assumed it could not be demons so therefore the movement of the pointer must have been the result friend.

Don't try to pussyfoot out of it now.
I put them in quotations because OP asserted them as a possibility. Thus, the use of quotations was appropriate. I was referencing the words of another.

Cute try, though. Laughat

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19-03-2013, 05:38 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 05:23 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 05:21 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Don't be silly, I argued that since their friend was capable of deceit, that wasn't enough cause to assume they decieved. That was in response to your claim that you cannot conclude with certainty that
demons were influencing your movements because the participants are capable of deception. You put demons in quotes as if they were a device of fantasty. You assumed it could not be demons so therefore the movement of the pointer must have been the result friend.

Don't try to pussyfoot out of it now.
I put them in quotations because OP asserted them as a possibility. Thus, the use of quotations was appropriate. I was referencing the words of another.

Cute try, though. Laughat

If you were referencing words of another, you would have quoted a statement or at least words of another. You cannot quote one word used by another and then claim you are quoting words of another. When you place just one word in a quote it usually means you do not intend the reader to take that word seriously.
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19-03-2013, 05:43 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 05:38 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 05:23 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I put them in quotations because OP asserted them as a possibility. Thus, the use of quotations was appropriate. I was referencing the words of another.

Cute try, though. Laughat

If you were referencing words of another, you would have quoted a statement or at least words of another. You cannot quote one word used by another and then claim you are quoting words of another. When you place just one word in a quote it usually means you do not intend the reader to take that word seriously.
I was gonna say "clearly you don't understand the proper use of quotations", but then I remembered that you do. You're simply a troll, doing what trolls do best.

I'm washing my hands of you, my friend. Adieu.

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19-03-2013, 05:50 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(19-03-2013 05:43 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 05:38 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If you were referencing words of another, you would have quoted a statement or at least words of another. You cannot quote one word used by another and then claim you are quoting words of another. When you place just one word in a quote it usually means you do not intend the reader to take that word seriously.
I was gonna say "clearly you don't understand the proper use of quotations", but then I remembered that you do. You're simply a troll, doing what trolls do best.

I'm washing my hands of you, my friend. Adieu.

Calling me a troll doesn't make my exposure of your errant thinking go away.

Seriously, calling me a troll, really makes for a piss/poor counter argument{if you can call it an argument).
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19-03-2013, 06:14 AM
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
That's right - it was satan - demoted to haunting spirit boards. Cause he was bad. Bad satan, bad.

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19-03-2013, 06:57 AM (This post was last modified: 19-03-2013 07:09 AM by Reltzik.)
RE: Paranormal experience & deconversion
(18-03-2013 07:18 PM)crazylikeyou Wrote:  I currently do not know what I believe. The documentary "Religulous" has had me questioning somethings (I'm catholic) and I have been doing various reading on athesim, but that being said....I think the one thing that will make it hardest for me to fall away from faith in an afterlife is an experience I had with an ouiji board in high school. I've tried to research how an atheist might explain away what happened but I'm just having a hard time buying bull like "your twitches move it" (??)

Anyways, I'll never forget how bad the experience freaked me out. It only took a couple of minutes for something to communicate with us. The hand piece started moving quickly. We watched it letter by letter and sounded it out together....I can tell you with 100% percent certainty that our fingers were lightly touching the thing and it was not us that was moving it!

The entity spelled out my name (wrong, too) and told me to go away several times. It also said we would all marry faggots. When we told it to say goodbye it went back and forth N-O N-O N-O several times and when we asked who it was the board spelled out SATAN. It then said HAHAHAHA and finally moved to "goodbye"

Can someone please help explain this to me? While I see that there are inconsistancies in the bible and I'm all for rational thinking I just do not understand this! Are there atheists who believe in ghosts? How else could you explain this?
First of all, welcome to the board! Please be aware that we've had a troll invasion in the last month or two, made worse by the tendency of members to feed them. Said trolls are best ignored, or at least quickly dismissed as they show their true colors. From the rest of us, expect a bit of snark or sarcasm from some, curt brevity from others, and thoughtful engagement from most.

Now, onto the ouija board. Someone mentioned that one of your friends could have been pulling your leg, and that's always a possibility.

Even without that, there are naturalistic ways that your experience could have played out, with movements guided by your subconscious or you actively seeking to ascribe meaning (such as which letters are being pointed to and which are just being passed by) to something that was meaningless. How plausible the latter is for your experience is something I can't say without having seen it, but the former would be more than sufficient. In laboratory conditions it has been shown that the marker is moved entirely by the force of the hands touching it. This doesn't entirely disprove the notion of a supernatural force at work. Such things are rarely possible to disprove, in the sense of proving a negative. What if the hypothetical spirit was guiding hands rather than the marker directly? Still, it does suggest that people, rather than some mysterious entity, are behind its motions, and that lends credence to the idea of subconscious expression. Does this disprove the supernatural explanation? No. But it is a plausible explanation that requires no supernatural element.

Finally, yes, some atheists can believe in ghosts and other supernatural phenomenon. There are a few different definitions of atheism floating around there, with subtle differences between them, but all of them revolve around questions of whether or not gods exist. (Actually, there's one definition in which a person can believe gods exist, and just doesn't offer worship or allegiance to any, but that one's kinda archaic.) Your questions about the ouija board is more of a naturalism vs supernaturalism question. That's pretty much separate from theism vs atheism. Theists will usually tend to be supernaturalists and atheists will tend to be naturalists, but that's not a hard and fast rule.

I'd suggest you approach all of this with scientific inquiry. Grab a ouija board (if the experience hasn't freaked you out too much) and get more data. For example, does it actually have predictive power? First, ask it questions that one or more people touching the marker actually know, like what color shirt someone is wearing, or what someone had for dinner last night. Then ask it something that no one there knows. Ask it about the future. Ask it to predict a die roll. Ask it about the next commercial to come on TV. Ask it about the contents of a sealed envelope (without the person who sealed it touching the marker) or what's the fifth word on page 50 of some book you haven't read. I suspect that you'll find that its power to answer questions is entirely limited to (A) answers that are not verifiable and (B) answers that the people touching the marker actually know or can quickly identify. (EDIT: Or C, things they don't know but can easily guess.) This would again suggest that it's the people touching the marker who are (perhaps subconsciously) controlling it. A further experiment might be to see if it behaves differently if the people touching the marker have different beliefs. For example, you got a message from Satan when you and several of your friends (who I presume also had a Christian background) were touching it. Would this happen for, say, Hindus? Or would they instead get messages from, say, Shiva? If the users are specifically told ahead of time that the guiding spirit has a certain name which you made up, and they ask what the spirit's name is, will the Ouija board confirm its name? Make a list of a dozen questions like this which would help you discern between the different explanations for the phenomenon, once you knew their answers. You don't have to have a preferred explanation ahead of time, just a question, an idea of what evidence will answer it, and the willingness to hunt down that evidence.

Because bottom line, science is the best way to get answers with certainty (p < 0.05). Polling atheist forums or paranormalist "experts" won't do it (why trust us or them?), nor will reading scientists' explanations without doing an experiment yourself, nor will just sitting there and trying to reason it all out in your brain without grounding your hypotheses and conclusions in further evidence. (Take THAT, Aristotle!) All of those things will suggest possibilities to you, and perhaps data you can gather, or has been gathered, or ways you can gather it. But if you want an answer to this question, get it from the ouija board.

(If you want an answer to any other question, get it from somewhere else.)

"If I ignore the alternatives, the only option is God; I ignore them; therefore God." -- The Syllogism of Fail
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