Parents' rights (Can o' worms)
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08-12-2012, 09:26 PM
RE: Parents' rights (Can o' worms)
(08-12-2012 07:52 PM)Phil_GA Wrote:  
(07-12-2012 10:09 PM)Chas Wrote:  By "19th-century bubble" I meant the Amish/Mennonite cults.

And I disagree with " moral/ethical teachings must originate from the church and not government" for two reasons.

First, it is a false dichotomy between church/government; you left out the individual, society, family, or philosophy.
Second, see the list of other sources in the previous sentence. Ethical beliefs do not originate with religion.

Having grown up in rural PA, I think it'd be pretty hard-pressed to call Mennonites a cult. At least in PA, there've never been any allegations of anything illegal pertaining to that societal sect. In fact, many farmers have looked upon them with disdain due solely to the fact that the Mennonites have lately been buying up a lot of resources in the area, so it's not like some folks wouldn't have a reason to call them out on something.

Next, by not mentioning certain things doesn't necessarily mean that I'm explicitly excluding qualifiers. However, morals must originate from somewhere, and it can't be society, because society -- no matter how ancient -- is merely a collection of individuals. Therefore, the argument becomes circular very quickly.

Thirdly, institutions such as the church most assuredly (I argue) promote a moral code. And the last time I checked, morally upstanding individuals are better leaders than those individuals who are, say, pathological in terms of lying or any other manner of vice.
"Cult" does not mean illegal behavior. Where do you get that concept? Of course the Mennonites are a cult.


  1. formal religious veneration
  2. a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
  3. a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of adherents

Morals and ethics come from within, partially from evolved behaviors.

Morality and ethics are the relationships we have with others, they define a society. It is by its very definition circular - it is a feedback relationship.

And, yes, religions promote moral codes. They are not all good. Look at Satanism or Islam.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-12-2012, 09:28 PM
RE: Parents' rights (Can o' worms)
(08-12-2012 07:59 PM)Phil_GA Wrote:  
(08-12-2012 12:39 PM)Birdguy1979 Wrote:  ...
Wow, just wow. You believe that the government leaders must be religious? This is how we end up with things like the Pope. A rediculously wealthy and powerful individual that without the power of the catholic church might be working in mcdonalds. You are one of the problems with the world.

Who said anything about religious leaders being in government (I'll go ahead and take out your reaction to its logical extent)? I believe I used the term moral, not religious.

However, here's the rub. I argue that there has to be a separate institution in society that is going to explicitly promote a moral code. And a moral code must reign supreme, else one runs into horrible inconsistencies in society, such as whose morals will win out for the benefit of everyone.
If the morals that win out benefit everyone, then how does it matter from whence they originate?

Or is it that you want only your group's morals to be forced on everyone?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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08-12-2012, 09:28 PM
RE: Parents' rights (Can o' worms)
(08-12-2012 08:03 PM)germanyt Wrote:  The problem you run into is that once you remove the decision making away from the parents you must put it in the hands of someone else. Parenting would become a controlled activity. Who controls it? Government? Neighbors? Schools? Who? How would stop/punish someone for teaching creationism to their kids? As irritating as it is to have poor children be forced to go to catholic schools we can't federally moderate how people raise their kids. That would have far, far greater consequences.



inb4 liberals who are okay with said parental oversight


Hence, can o' worms. Drinking Beverage

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-12-2012, 08:42 AM
RE: Parents' rights (Can o' worms)
I would say that modern parent/child relations are too PC.

Parents rule children, this is as is.
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24-12-2012, 08:45 AM
RE: Parents' rights (Can o' worms)
(24-12-2012 08:42 AM)namiloveyou Wrote:  Parents rule children, this is as is.
Is it? Or is it just as you're saying it is?

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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24-12-2012, 08:49 AM
RE: Parents' rights (Can o' worms)
(24-12-2012 08:45 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(24-12-2012 08:42 AM)namiloveyou Wrote:  Parents rule children, this is as is.
Is it? Or is it just as you're saying it is?
What?

yeah....and parents are not responsible for children's welfare. hmm... are you so idiotic that basic norms of the human condition are "offensive" to you?
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24-12-2012, 08:51 AM
RE: Parents' rights (Can o' worms)
(24-12-2012 08:45 AM)Vera Wrote:  
(24-12-2012 08:42 AM)namiloveyou Wrote:  Parents rule children, this is as is.
Is it? Or is it just as you're saying it is?
It is as is as it is. I'm not 'just' saying it is, that's how it is. I said so. Tu comprends ?
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24-12-2012, 08:52 AM
RE: Parents' rights (Can o' worms)
(24-12-2012 08:49 AM)namiloveyou Wrote:  
(24-12-2012 08:45 AM)Vera Wrote:  Is it? Or is it just as you're saying it is?
What?

yeah....and parents are not responsible for children's welfare. hmm... are you so idiotic that basic norms of the human condition are "offensive" to you?
Wow! That has got to be a record for fastest devolving into hurling of insults. What was it, ten posts?[Image: 2147873.gif]
Laugh out load

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24-12-2012, 08:55 AM
RE: Parents' rights (Can o' worms)
Hmm... You also don't understand how humans behave. Kudos!!!
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24-12-2012, 08:57 AM
RE: Parents' rights (Can o' worms)
(24-12-2012 08:55 AM)namiloveyou Wrote:  Hmm... You also don't understand how humans behave. Kudos!!!
Wait, you're saying you're human? You had us all fooled you were a bot.

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