Paris attacks
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16-11-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: Paris attacks
(16-11-2015 10:16 AM)Hobbitgirl Wrote:  
(16-11-2015 10:12 AM)adey67 Wrote:  Still part of a vicious cycle of gun violence though. But I'm not American so I am unable to fully understand the relationship you guys have with firearms. To those of us on the outside it sometimes appears like a love fest with an inanimate object, it probably isn't but it kind of looks that way (to me anyhow) Big Grin

It is a love fest. Often an unhealthy one, but there is no telling them that. They don't know any other way. Wink




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16-11-2015, 02:13 PM
RE: Paris attacks
(16-11-2015 03:43 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Questions have been raised about what "approve" and "support" means, in regards to the number of people supporting terrorism.

What does it mean to YOU in regards to the things you support and approve?

For me it means one or any of the following:

1. Simply being glad or happy to see the cause I support achieve success.
2. Helping the cause if the opportunity presents itself.
3. Actively looking for the opportunity to help the cause.
4. And finally , joining the action myself

So, what does it mean to support the terrorism in practical terms ?

Anything in the range from just fist pumping to learn of the terrorist action being successful, to not reporting your neighbor building bombs in his basement, helping the known terrorist hide from authorities, donating money to organizations funding terrorist actions, providing logistics and/or intelligence to terrorists, to finally becoming a terrorist yourself.
Obviously, actual terrorist do not fall from the sky, they are recruited from the ranks of supporters.

Which is, indeed, a very partial list of what "support" might mean. And since we can't read minds, that's all we've got.

(16-11-2015 03:43 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Most of the 160 million muslims who support terrorism will be just quietly nodding their heads or rejoice over the success of the terrorist attack in their privacy, but you need to be really naive to think that this kind of actions can be planned and executed without , at best turning a blind eye and at worst active support from ( part of ) the community.

"I have just explained why I have literally no idea what the phrase means, therefore let me conclude that I know what the phrase means".

Withholding conclusions given insufficient data is a new, and very odd, definition of naivete.

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16-11-2015, 02:14 PM
RE: Paris attacks
(16-11-2015 01:34 PM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  
(16-11-2015 01:31 PM)Fireball Wrote:  "They" is a pretty big brush with which to tar a large segment of a population.

Almost like, say, I don't know, claiming that 60% of a population supports terrorism...

But as you should know: stereotypes and generalisation are only okay when they're referring to those people.

You know the ones I mean. Those ones. Over there. Not me or anyone like me, obviously.

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16-11-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: Paris attacks
(16-11-2015 09:57 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(16-11-2015 09:43 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  That's the Sidney Opera House. It's one of the most famous and beautiful buildings in the world.

... although, surprisingly, the acoustics inside are not quite as impressive as you'd expect them to be.

Yes, that's what I've heard......or didn't hear.....or barely heard.........whatever.

Sorry, back to the topic at hand.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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16-11-2015, 03:01 PM
RE: Paris attacks
Perhaps a useful analogy might be the support among American Christian fundamentalists for killing gays? A poll would return statistically significant non-zero endorsement, to be sure. But "this is what I was told 'we' are supposed to believe, therefore I believe it" is not the same as acting. And note the gap in rhetoric when it comes to things like US evengelical intervention in Uganda; you get more money soliciting for "missionary work" than you do for "lobbying to pass a law mandating a death sentence for homosexuality". It's far easier to support distant abstractions than deeds against your immediate friends, neighbours, and coworkers.

So to reiterate: no, it is effectively impossible to say what "support" means without actually conversing with someone.

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16-11-2015, 03:54 PM
RE: Paris attacks
Take a look at pretty much EVERY holy book. Sooner or later you're going to find a story about a time when the higher power, the protagonist of the book, laid waste to the enemies of its chosen people - in some of them it happens repeatedly. You have the right to read that book. You have the right to believe in that book. You have the right to believe that if you do what that book says you'll live forever in paradise - you EVEN have the right to tell other people, including your own children, they're going to burn in a lake of fire for all of eternity if they don't follow your book. BUT... if other people who love that same book start blowing up innocent people in public places it is NOT "bigotry" for people to point out that there's some crazy shit in that book, even if you find that assertion offensive and would never engage in that kind of violence yourself. It's the book, not you as a person, that's being criticized. I have the right to tell you I think that book is a violent crock of shit. I have the right to ask you WHY you believe in that book. If you have no good response and it makes you mad, you do NOT have the right to use violence to shut me up or force me to your point of view.
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16-11-2015, 03:56 PM
RE: Paris attacks
A bit of anecdotal evidence on what support for suicide bombings means to a middle eastern Muslim.

My significant other was married to an Iranian national. My blond haired blue eyed all American southern country girl spent most of the 80s living in Iran and most of the 90s in either Jordan, Syria or Egypt. She speaks passable Farsi and Arabic. In her opinion many perhaps even most middle eastern Muslims approve of suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism because they see it as their most effective option for fighting the west. And they want to fight the west. They fucking hate the west and everything we stand for. It's just her opinion, but it is an opinion formed after nearly 20 years of living with people in question.

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16-11-2015, 04:19 PM
RE: Paris attacks
(16-11-2015 02:13 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(16-11-2015 03:43 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Questions have been raised about what "approve" and "support" means, in regards to the number of people supporting terrorism.

What does it mean to YOU in regards to the things you support and approve?

For me it means one or any of the following:

1. Simply being glad or happy to see the cause I support achieve success.
2. Helping the cause if the opportunity presents itself.
3. Actively looking for the opportunity to help the cause.
4. And finally , joining the action myself

So, what does it mean to support the terrorism in practical terms ?

Anything in the range from just fist pumping to learn of the terrorist action being successful, to not reporting your neighbor building bombs in his basement, helping the known terrorist hide from authorities, donating money to organizations funding terrorist actions, providing logistics and/or intelligence to terrorists, to finally becoming a terrorist yourself.
Obviously, actual terrorist do not fall from the sky, they are recruited from the ranks of supporters.

Which is, indeed, a very partial list of what "support" might mean. And since we can't read minds, that's all we've got.

(16-11-2015 03:43 AM)Slowminded Wrote:  Most of the 160 million muslims who support terrorism will be just quietly nodding their heads or rejoice over the success of the terrorist attack in their privacy, but you need to be really naive to think that this kind of actions can be planned and executed without , at best turning a blind eye and at worst active support from ( part of ) the community.

"I have just explained why I have literally no idea what the phrase means, therefore let me conclude that I know what the phrase means".

Withholding conclusions given insufficient data is a new, and very odd, definition of naivete.

Hahahha, I feel like you are strong-arming me into a discussion.

It's working Blink

Quote:Withholding conclusions given insufficient data is a new, and very odd, definition of naivete.

I think, in this case, common sense is perfectly sufficient to reach the conclusion.


Btw, some data is in....

23 people arrested in France and 2 in Belgium. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34830233
Is this data sufficient to say they had support ? If yes, do I get brownie points for making a correct conclusion without sufficient data?

If not, what would be sufficient? I am hoping here that "sufficient data" is not some unobtainable mystical thing that exists only for the lack of it to be used as an excuse for not reaching the conclusions we might not like.

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16-11-2015, 04:45 PM
RE: Paris attacks
Yeah, one more thing.

The fact that we can not pinpoint what "support" really means, doesn't warrant the attitude that it doesn't mean anything and ignore it.

In fact, if somebody says that they support terrorism , I don't give a flying fuck if he means it in the most benevolent, philosophical, theoretical way or he is thinking about strapping bombs around his waist himself .
That person has no business in my country.

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16-11-2015, 05:00 PM
RE: Paris attacks
(16-11-2015 04:45 PM)Slowminded Wrote:  Yeah, one more thing.

The fact that we can not pinpoint what "support" really means, doesn't warrant the attitude that it doesn't mean anything and ignore it.

In fact, if somebody says that they support terrorism , I don't give a flying fuck if he means it in the most benevolent, philosophical, theoretical way or he is thinking about strapping bombs around his waist himself .
That person has no business in my country.

Which country is that? Many countries have historical acts of terrorism anointed and celebrated annually or at least in their history lessons.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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