Partly facist...
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25-06-2011, 09:20 PM
RE: Partly facist...
Quote:Again what is so wrong with asking something of people who want to be the caretaker of a human being...

I think you can ask all the questions in the world but it is not an accurate measure as to whether someone is capable of raising a child. The only was to truly measure if someone is capable of raising a child is for them to have a child.

Quote:Vasectomies are reversible.

I'm really not in favour of giving boys vasectomies when they hit puberty and not reversing them until they pass a certain test. This also doesn't help to regulate the mothers.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
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Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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25-06-2011, 10:13 PM
RE: Partly facist...
It wasn't stupid, I was making a point but it doesn't matter. You clearly missed it.

I don't see a problem with asking potential parents such questions, but there are so many issues to take into account that it becomes ridiculous. There are also random variables that can't be determined by any test. What it ends up coming down to is holding a set of values against someone else's. What you value may not be the same as what I value (which I suspect) so who determines? No one will be totally happy, and the different cultural values assures us of that.

What do you think makes a good parent? It won't be exactly the same as what someone else thinks makes a good parent. I agree that as far as knowing that there is no way in which you could take care of a child but going ahead with it anyways is a real asshole thing to do, but when you start denying peoples rights to do so you cross a line where there is no going back. The best I think we can do is help the kids the assholes make to be better people and be healthy people. Hopefully those parents will stop making babies (unlikely) but more importantly hopefully their children will grow up to be reasonable adults that see the error of their parents ways. (possible)

There is no way to regulate something like this effectively. To assume you can is an error. But I think this is one of those things me and you will have to agree to disagree on. I respect your opinion, attempt to do the same to mine.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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26-06-2011, 01:01 AM
RE: Partly facist...
Maybe parents who do this shouldn't be allowed to have kids?

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

"Every man is guilty of all the good he did not do." - Voltaire
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26-06-2011, 08:50 AM (This post was last modified: 26-06-2011 08:57 AM by NotSoVacuous.)
RE: Partly facist...
(25-06-2011 10:13 PM)lucradis Wrote:  It wasn't stupid, I was making a point but it doesn't matter. You clearly missed it.

I don't see a problem with asking potential parents such questions, but there are so many issues to take into account that it becomes ridiculous. There are also random variables that can't be determined by any test. What it ends up coming down to is holding a set of values against someone else's. What you value may not be the same as what I value (which I suspect) so who determines? No one will be totally happy, and the different cultural values assures us of that.

What do you think makes a good parent? It won't be exactly the same as what someone else thinks makes a good parent. I agree that as far as knowing that there is no way in which you could take care of a child but going ahead with it anyways is a real asshole thing to do, but when you start denying peoples rights to do so you cross a line where there is no going back. The best I think we can do is help the kids the assholes make to be better people and be healthy people. Hopefully those parents will stop making babies (unlikely) but more importantly hopefully their children will grow up to be reasonable adults that see the error of their parents ways. (possible)

There is no way to regulate something like this effectively. To assume you can is an error. But I think this is one of those things me and you will have to agree to disagree on. I respect your opinion, attempt to do the same to mine.

No, no and no.

My argument of whether someone had a child or not should be based on their education, ability to support their child financially, or a series of classes to earn the right. You clearly misrepresented it and said "Should people that disagree with my opinion on how cheese is great be allowed to have children." This was no where close to anything I said, my criteria to meet is all based on the parent ability to support the child, not opinion. No where did I even hint that it should go into the realm of what a parent thinks. It was only actions.

To comment on doing this effectively I do know every day foster care companies do it on a smaller scale. So to say it can not be done is rhetorical nonsense. Foster care criteria

Everyday people have to take tests before they can drive, present financial income criteria before they can buy something large, and educate themselves before taking a job that require responsibility. It is done everyday so don't tell me it can't be done.


This is also not my point whether or not it can be done effectively. In a world where idiots can breed and harm the well being of a child I see no reason at all to ask something of people who are about to undergo a process that is a very big decision. Keep dodging this point if you want, but it still comes down to the child's well being.


@daemonowner

Now obviously if someone met all the necessary requirements then did things like that, it should be looked at thoroughly and in my opinion the child should be taken away. You obviously can't fix everything, just hopefully make it a better system.
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26-06-2011, 10:06 AM
RE: Partly facist...
You really dont get my point which us fine. I'm done with the conversation because the horse is dead.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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26-06-2011, 10:49 AM
RE: Partly facist...
I do not support your idea of people with low intelligence not being able to have children. How to you measure intelligence? The IQ test has been proven time and time again to not be a very good way of measuring intelligence. Also, since when does one need to be intelligent to be a loving and supportive parent? Also, I think (and many scientists do as well) that intelligence is not just something hereditary, but an environmental factor. I've seen eggheads produce real idiots (IE Paris Hilton) and I've seen idiots produce very intelligent children.

I think we need to take a preventive measure, rather then forcing it on people. Just like atheism, it's something that is learned or found out through information, no one forced us to stop believing. I think that schools and parents should be realistic about contraception, I think that the "The Patch" should be freely available to women via public health, and strongly encouraged to be used. I believe that the religious right needs to get their damn hands off of health care, and allow women to get abortions, hassle free.

Pretty much I believe we should take a positive approach, people will not listen if you call them dumb or that their should be a test to be a parent (THERE IS NO WAY TO PREPARE TO BE A PARENT!). Flood the internet, TV, and radio with public health announcements about using birth control. Educate the American public relentlessly on the virtues of birth control, waiting to have children, and having a stable life style.

However, I do believe in some things. Women who are on welfare MUST be on medicated birth control. (Scientists need to get inventing a reliable medicated birth control for men!). Religious reasons should not be an out for it, if you want welfare, you must be on medicated birth control. Like I said before, abortions should be easily accessible for women, and the public should be educated on the TRUTHS about abortion.

The sum of my argument is that we need to work on getting birth control more accessible to men and women, it solves the problem before it gets out of hand.

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26-06-2011, 08:05 PM
RE: Partly facist...
While I don't agree with your argument I do have your answer. Though I can't seem to find the article. There was a quack scientist who was researching freezing the uterus so that young girls could be kept from having babies. That would be the most definite form of semi-permanent birth control. Currently a vasectomy is a safer plan than any of the birth control options for women. The options for women tend to have much harsher side-effects. However, a reverse vasectomy can mess up and leave the boy infertile.

The only way to control birth currently, would be to add a birth control system into the national water supply.

It would also be a lot better to allow any parent to have at least one child. There are some people who can't handle anything and when they have a baby, the first year the parents pay for most of the supplies and then after that they all the sudden have a home and a job. Lives change when children are introduced.

Hughes made a great suggestion in only giving money to welfare moms for two kids. That would easily cut down on a lot of the excessive baby birthing that goes on within section 8 places where the babies really have no chance.

The thing is, most people do not plan for their child, they have sex and it happens at some point. Educating children properly on how sex works will make things a lot better, but of course there will still be problems.

I'm all for proper sex education, I am not for your suggestion Vacuous was just trying to find a link to something that coincides with your idea.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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27-06-2011, 05:38 AM
RE: Partly facist...
@ Lilith Pride

Maybe it is just the way I think, but I view having a child and that child's rights to be a very important thing. Global birth control would seem a little difficult (Although I don't hate the idea) but implementing a law that forces an abortion if they attempt to break the law is something I am more or less leaning to. The abortion would have to be paid for by the offenders of course, either over time or up front.

What I am more concerned about, and it really seems like everyone in this thread is ignoring my point, is that, why is something as paramount as this looked at as any idiots choice. I feel society would be in a much better place if everyone had a better "chance" when they were born. There are many of people who were raised wrong and it could have been prevented. Many of people who could of went to college if the opportunity was just there. Of course you can't make it happen for every kid, they will be screw ups and piss a life like this away, but I really do think if more were given the choice the success rate in the newly found generation would trump the previous.
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27-06-2011, 08:40 AM
RE: Partly facist...
Actually it seems that you, NotSoVacuous, are refusing to listen to anyone's post. I think the majority of people on this forum are in favor of prevention vs punishment.

I'm sorry if most people don't look favorably upon Eugenics (which is what you are proposing when you say only people with so and so IQ and higher can breed). Or that you must make this much income to have children. To be honest you seem to not really care about children at all, but instead care about power and control, which is what all fascists seem to be about.

I don't think you are going to garner much support on a forum that the entire focus is an idea which we all came to on our own terms. Atheism is about empathy and understanding of humans and the human condition, realizing that everyone makes mistakes and we can only more forward.

Forcing abortions on people who conceived by accident sounds just as forgiving and understanding as the tyrannical gods that we all abandoned as bronze age myths. Violence never solves anything, it causes hatred and discontent, control fosters open rebellion and revolution. Hardly something you want in a peaceful and civilized society.

So before you pass judgement on millions of parents, why don't you talk to them, and their children, see what it is really like. Ask yourself how you would feel if you were in their situation. When you have done that, read your first post again, and you just might feel a little different when you have an inkling of empathy and understanding for their situations.

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27-06-2011, 05:05 PM
RE: Partly facist...
One thing that you may not realize Vaccuous, is that while there are areas with rampant child issues where it definitely seems horrible that they keep being born, the actuality is that children in general are being given much better lives than they were before. The worst difference of now compared to before is more families have neither parent home. There are areas with bad education but a lot of the country doesn't have that. There are plenty of great parents but the media doesn't show that. The country isn't filled with horrible parents we just point them out when they come up, Media has a horrible way of defaming groups. It's just like the fact that a lot of people think crime is on the rise when it's really uncommon now, the news is just louder on TV than little snippets in local papers.

There will always be mistakes but a lot of the time that's not what happens. Yes there are a lot of babies going through the horrors of foster care, there would be a lot less if the biological parents stopped making more >.>. The thing is that myself and most everyone here was an accident. It's rather uncommon for parents to sit down and plan to concieve a child. Usually it just happens. If we really made childbirth such a horrendous process, then we would limit the population greatly.

Look at the similar issue of abortion, there are girls who make mistakes and want to deal with the problem and they make the hard choice of abortion. But all the sudden they have red tape to go through papers to sign, waiting periods, all sorts of preventative measures to keep them from aborting babies. Many aspiring parents would be bogged down by the red tape too when their cute idea of having a child becomes a hellish responsibility. First children aren't born by mother's who realize what motherhood is going to be. First kids are born by women who have a wonderful idea of what having a baby will be like. Parenting is very difficult and can be daunting. And to limit people so excessively would lead to most feeling it shouldn't even be attempted.

It seems you're for abortion as a control mechanism, but do you realize that the main issue we have currently with abortion is how much right a woman has with her life? If we set up such harsh standards it would be excessive control. Maybe sometime in the future it will happen, but right now we haven't even accepted what rights people have. There comes a point when you look at things where you have to step away and look at the ethics. Medical scientists run into this idea often, an idea seems to be so great but when you look at the practice of it you have to realize this is going to have a huge emotional toll and many other factors it's not a simple procedure.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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