Partly facist...
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27-06-2011, 06:09 PM
RE: Partly facist...
(27-06-2011 08:40 AM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  To be honest you seem to not really care about children at all, but instead care about power and control, which is what all fascists seem to be about.

I think my entire point is focused around the child. Oh, and here is where my sarcasm kicks in, yes foster parent systems care more about power and control, that's why they do those silly background checks measuring income and looking for any criminal record. Heaven forbid we make sure if a parent is capable to support a child financially and mentally.


(27-06-2011 08:40 AM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  Atheism is about empathy and understanding of humans and the human condition, realizing that everyone makes mistakes and we can only more forward.

a·the·ism/ˈāTHēˌizəm/
Noun: The theory or belief that God does not exist.

Hmmm...



(27-06-2011 08:40 AM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  So before you pass judgement on millions of parents, why don't you talk to them, and their children, see what it is really like. Ask yourself how you would feel if you were in their situation. When you have done that, read your first post again, and you just might feel a little different when you have an inkling of empathy and understanding for their situations.

This is where people start to piss me off. When you assume that I haven't done my research or that I might be exempt of such claims. That my post was just on a whim, an uneducated and vindictive attempt to say some stupid shit. Unlike you my post wasn't created in 15 minutes after reading an OP.

I was born into a home where my parents had me at the age of 17 and 19. Both clearly unfit, both drug addicts, both living without any structure. Throughout growing up I was taught nothing of importance, they cared more about a needle then raising me the right way. Somehow by pure chance and against the odds I didn't become a statistic. I had to buy my own car, teach myself about how to gain anything financially, and am now putting myself through college with the money I painstakingly earned.

There are millions of children today in America alone who go through worse than what I went through. Who turn out corrupt, who steal, who end up in gangs, who end up in prison, who end up dead, who don't even make it that far because they died of starvation in their early years. And your best response is listen to the parent, their stories, and how they feel, so they don't have to prove themselves to be parents. So they don't have to prove themselves?

If it is screwed up to think people should have to justify themselves worthy of creating a human life and caring for it, then I think there is something clearly wrong with this society. Acknowledge this point, because if you think it is moral to put millions of children through this kind of torment so millions of parents don't have to own up to the responsibility of birthing a child, they I think you are the problem.
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27-06-2011, 06:30 PM
RE: Partly facist...
(27-06-2011 06:09 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  This is where people start to piss me off. When you assume that I haven't done my research or that I might be exempt of such claims. That my post was just on a whim, an uneducated and vindictive attempt to say some stupid shit. Unlike you my post wasn't created in 15 minutes after reading an OP.

I was born into a home where my parents had me at the age of 17 and 19. Both clearly unfit, both drug addicts, both living without any structure. Throughout growing up I was taught nothing of importance, they cared more about a needle then raising me the right way. Somehow by pure chance and against the odds I didn't become a statistic. I had to buy my own car, teach myself about how to gain anything financially, and am now putting myself through college with the money I painstakingly earned.

There are millions of children today in America alone who go through worse than what I went through. Who turn out corrupt, who steal, who end up in gangs, who end up in prison, who end up dead, who don't even make it that far because they died of starvation in their early years. And your best response is listen to the parent, their stories, and how they feel, so they don't have to prove themselves to be parents. So they don't have to prove themselves?

If it is screwed up to think people should have to justify themselves worthy of creating a human life and caring for it, then I think there is something clearly wrong with this society. Acknowledge this point, because if you think it is moral to put millions of children through this kind of torment so millions of parents don't have to own up to the responsibility of birthing a child, they I think you are the problem.

Like I've said, if you have a workable way of deciding who is capable of providing good care then post it on here.

I'm sorry if your upbringing was less than adequate, no-one should have to go through what you describe. And I accept that the current system isn't perfect but rather than just criticise the current system you need to suggest a workable alternative.

I personally don't think that a perfect system can be achieved, only the damage done by unfit parents limited. Like I said, I would only provide people with welfare for their first two children, this would prevent people from having children just to claim benefits, and I would have anyone who repeatedly proved an unfit parent forcibly sterilised (in a reversible way if possible, this would also mean such procedures would have to be regulated). I cannot think of any other ideas that would work but if you have any I would love to hear them.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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27-06-2011, 06:48 PM
RE: Partly facist...
@Lilith Pride

Most of your post was irrelevant, it has nothing to do with what I am discussing. You also imply that, yes, there are many children being put through this torment but there are many who aren't and the system is better than it was. Of course it is better than it was, that is because we discussed new idea's to fix the problem and refined them. Also, just because there are more children better off than the millions that are not, does not mean we should not be looking for a way to improve the current system.

You also mention, as does Hughsie, that if such a system was implemented that people wouldn't go through with it and it would harm our population. Either one of two things is happening here, you think the system I want to implement is near impossible to abide by, or you understand it won't be too difficult and that people are so unfit to have a child they wouldn't undergo a simple series of classes to educate themselves better. Which the ladder would imply that you agree with me that there are so many unfit parents that the care and need for a child isn't worth of educating themselves. A sad world indeed.

@Hughsie

Quote:I'm sorry if your upbringing was less than adequate, no-one should have to go through what you describe. And I accept that the current system isn't perfect but rather than just criticise the current system you need to suggest a workable alternative.

My point entirely, the current system allows people to go through what people shouldn't have to go through, you said it yourself. So I see no reason why I should criticize the current system. Also, I do create alternatives, it has been the retort of EVERYONE'S post that followed my OP. Criticizing my alternatives. So you not only didn't read my OP, you read no one else's because it is the entirety of everyone's rebuttal.
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27-06-2011, 07:05 PM
RE: Partly facist...
(27-06-2011 06:48 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  My point entirely, the current system allows people to go through what people shouldn't have to go through, you said it yourself. So I see no reason why I should criticize the current system. Also, I do create alternatives, it has been the retort of EVERYONE'S post that followed my OP. Criticizing my alternatives. So you not only didn't read my OP, you read no one else's because it is the entirety of everyone's rebuttal.

The only ideas I've seen you post are to limit peoples right to pro-create based on their income and IQ but you haven't set out any specifics (like at what income/IQ people are allowed to have kids) nor have you set out how you would implement it (like how would you prevent people from having kids). These are the things you need to consider.

On a side note do you not feel that in a way you yourself are a living example of one of the problems with this sort of idea? You have had a terrible upbringing yet have, as far as I can tell, turned out well. If people were prevented from pro-creating we could easily lose many valuable members of society.

I think I could be persuaded into the idea of penalties for unfit parents but not penalties for parents based on the idea they MIGHT turn out to be unfit.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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27-06-2011, 07:49 PM
RE: Partly facist...
I was in a similar enough situation. I was born by mistake would've been aborted but they waited too long. My parents were in their 40's. My dad was in no way father material occasionally he would play with me and then he also took me to family events. That was all we did. My mom was exhausted all the time and any time she had available went to my step-sister. I was alone in a middle class family living poor. I had to find food for myself starting at 5 years old. Usually dinner would be made but that was it. I had to get the idea of hygiene on my own. Everything was just me doing it. My brother and sister both got heavy into drinking and drugs and my sister got pregnant at 16 and 17 (she found a rich couple who couldn't have children and they took both). The first baby was in the house for a year before she admitted she couldn't keep it. She played with the baby a few times but me the 8 year old little "brother" (it's complicated =p) took care of her baby more than she did. I know the situation of a broken home very well.

My post was very relevant, because it was talking about the stigma that this sort of control would cause. Yes people are pretty care-free on all this stuff, but demanding that it be controlled and sanctioned will backfire. People don't give a shit about their rights until they are taken away and it is at that moment when everything goes horribly wrong. Don't say that ethics are besides the point. It is often so hard to discuss this, but ethics are often what keep us from progressing in ways that cause gigantic issues that take forever to fix afterwards. It may seem to take too long but it happens, it happens in slow intervals which is the best we can do.

Also, as a side note my sister had a baby a few years back and it was great for her. It helped so much with her life, and her child is very happy and well adjusted. She didn't stay a bad parent.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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27-06-2011, 08:25 PM
RE: Partly facist...
(27-06-2011 07:49 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  My post was very relevant, because it was talking about the stigma that this sort of control would cause.

No, it wasn't most of it was implications that I thought most of the world was bad because I saw it on the news. You tried to belittle the point by implying that there aren't that many children in bad situations.

(27-06-2011 07:49 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Yes people are pretty care-free on all this stuff, but demanding that it be controlled and sanctioned will backfire. People don't give a shit about their rights until they are taken away and it is at that moment when everything goes horribly wrong.
This only enforces my point, all you are saying here is that people are too stupid to realize what is good for them or anyone else and then get angry when someone wants to fix the problem.

(27-06-2011 07:49 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Don't say that ethics are besides the point. It is often so hard to discuss this, but ethics are often what keep us from progressing in ways that cause gigantic issues that take forever to fix afterwards. It may seem to take too long but it happens, it happens in slow intervals which is the best we can do.

As you might know me by now given our last tousle of terse statements that I do not care how people feel, I care about what is right and will establish and uphold what is the best alternative we can have. I just find it funny that when it is a minority of innocent children who's rights are infringed on that it isn't as bad as the majority of guilty people's rights that I want them to earn.

(27-06-2011 07:49 PM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  Also, as a side note my sister had a baby a few years back and it was great for her. It helped so much with her life, and her child is very happy and well adjusted. She didn't stay a bad parent.

A low, irrelevant statistic. Just because a minority of people were irresponsible and rolled the dice and it turned out in their favor doesn't mean we should let everyone play this risky game at the expense of children well being.


@Hughsie

Look, I am really tired of play Jeopardy with you. I state something, and it is almost as if you try to create a question that it would answer. Just tired of repeating myself to you is all.
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28-06-2011, 02:33 AM
RE: Partly facist...
I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your ideals, and from the looks of it, no one else does either. I'm sorry if you had a crappy childhood, but to take that out on millions of parents and children is not really the way to go about it.

I noticed you failed to address why you don't take anyone's idea into consideration, I guess we are just to pedestrian for your vast ideas on parenting.

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28-06-2011, 05:34 AM
RE: Partly facist...
(27-06-2011 08:25 PM)NotSoVacuous Wrote:  @Hughsie

Look, I am really tired of play Jeopardy with you. I state something, and it is almost as if you try to create a question that it would answer. Just tired of repeating myself to you is all.

We are clearly missing each others points so its probably best for me to bow out of this one.

Best and worst of Ferdinand .....
Best
Ferdinand: We don't really say 'theist' in Alabama. Here, you're either a Christian, or you're from Afghanistan and we fucking hate you.
Worst
Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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28-06-2011, 06:37 AM
RE: Partly facist...
(28-06-2011 02:33 AM)monkeyshine89 Wrote:  I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your ideals, and from the looks of it, no one else does either. I'm sorry if you had a crappy childhood, but to take that out on millions of parents and children is not really the way to go about it.

I noticed you failed to address why you don't take anyone's idea into consideration, I guess we are just to pedestrian for your vast ideas on parenting.

No one had another point other than global birth control. Which I acknowledged.
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