Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
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21-10-2013, 02:40 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(19-10-2013 10:55 AM)kim Wrote:  
(16-10-2013 12:32 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  We're not talking about "ad populum" we're talking about most people who've ever lived in any culture, time or place.

You just stated: We are not talking about most people who've ever lived in any culture, time or place, we're talking about most people who've ever lived in any culture, time or place.

The fact that you did it in one sentence is so fucking amazing... I'm not certain I've ever seen that before... except maybe as a joke. Blink Are you from that Punk'd show?

Kim:

Ad populum is a fallacy, just because most people believe something doesn't make it true. We're not talking about most people or many people, we're talking about nearly everyone who has ever lived, and I'd place atheists at 1% of all people through time. That's why, in part, it's said that the existence of god is self-evident.

You might as well say there are no people just because most people believe people exist! Those who didn't agree... are insane.
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21-10-2013, 03:46 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(21-10-2013 02:40 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Ad populum is a fallacy, just because most people believe something doesn't make it true. We're not talking about most people or many people, we're talking about nearly everyone who has ever lived, and I'd place atheists at 1% of all people through time. That's why, in part, it's said that the existence of god is self-evident.

You might as well say there are no people just because most people believe people exist! Those who didn't agree... are insane.

Quite possibly one of your worst arguments.

There is no limit on how many people can be wrong;
You continue to fabricate percentages and statistics to suit your needs;
The proof for people existing far exceeds the proof for any god (even though you will continue to abstract the meaning of proof to try and 'prove' a point);

Maybe you've given up on proving your god, and are now simply trying to prove any god at all. If that's the case, I'd like you to resurrect the Greek gods. They always were my favorites.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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22-10-2013, 02:57 AM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(21-10-2013 02:40 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Ad populum is a fallacy, just because most people believe something doesn't make it true. We're not talking about most people or many people, we're talking about nearly everyone who has ever lived, and I'd place atheists at 1% of all people through time. That's why, in part, it's said that the existence of god is self-evident.

You might as well say there are no people just because most people believe people exist! Those who didn't agree... are insane.


Your level of ignorance is astounding. The point is that NO AMOUNT of people simply believing in something, by the very nature of them believing in it, makes it factually accurate. This is the very core of the fallacy, one you continue to perpetuate while denying it's use...

Most living organisms lack the mental capacity to even conceptualize a god, so I guess gods don't exists because 99.9999% of all live on this planet cannot acknowledge their presence!

To the best of our knowledge, life in our solar system only exists on Earth. There is none on any of the other 8 commonly recognized planets, or any of their moons, or any other body moving throughout our system. Guess that means that most of the planets would also show a complete lack of god believing creatures inhabiting them! Looks like gods don't exist!

Not that I suppose you'd find either of those two example compelling. Then again you think Pascal's Wager is a sound bet, so my confidence in your ability to comprehend simple probability theory or logic is at a negative anyways... Drinking Beverage

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22-10-2013, 03:38 AM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(22-10-2013 02:57 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Your level of ignorance is astounding. The point is that NO AMOUNT of people simply believing in something, by the very nature of them believing in it, makes it factually accurate. This is the very core of the fallacy, one you continue to perpetuate while denying it's use...

Most living organisms lack the mental capacity to even conceptualize a god, so I guess gods don't exists because 99.9999% of all live on this planet cannot acknowledge their presence!

To the best of our knowledge, life in our solar system only exists on Earth. There is none on any of the other 8 commonly recognized planets, or any of their moons, or any other body moving throughout our system. Guess that means that most of the planets would also show a complete lack of god believing creatures inhabiting them! Looks like gods don't exist!

Not that I suppose you'd find either of those two example compelling. Then again you think Pascal's Wager is a sound bet, so my confidence in your ability to comprehend simple probability theory or logic is at a negative anyways... Drinking Beverage

You are correct that no amount of people believing something is true makes it factually accurate. Factualness is in no way dependent on the number of people who believe it.

However, generally speaking, the more people who believe something to be true, the more likely it is true. Why? Because people know stuff.....about things....they know about the world even if they don't know they know about the world. The aggregate of this knowledge often makes accurate conclusions. Its called crowd wisdom. The existence of crowd wisdom is a fact that is not in dispute.

PleaseJesus is only making a fallacy if he is claiming that because most of everybody believes in God, therefore God must exist. If PleaseJesus is claiming that because most everyone believes in God, that suggests God exists, then he is not guilty of the fallacy.

Suppose a space alien visited the United States and queried everyone it met, "Who is your leader?" If 99 out of 100 people said Obama, that would be evidence the alien could rely upon to conclude Obama is the leader.
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22-10-2013, 05:47 AM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(22-10-2013 03:38 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(22-10-2013 02:57 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Your level of ignorance is astounding. The point is that NO AMOUNT of people simply believing in something, by the very nature of them believing in it, makes it factually accurate. This is the very core of the fallacy, one you continue to perpetuate while denying it's use...

Most living organisms lack the mental capacity to even conceptualize a god, so I guess gods don't exists because 99.9999% of all live on this planet cannot acknowledge their presence!

To the best of our knowledge, life in our solar system only exists on Earth. There is none on any of the other 8 commonly recognized planets, or any of their moons, or any other body moving throughout our system. Guess that means that most of the planets would also show a complete lack of god believing creatures inhabiting them! Looks like gods don't exist!

Not that I suppose you'd find either of those two example compelling. Then again you think Pascal's Wager is a sound bet, so my confidence in your ability to comprehend simple probability theory or logic is at a negative anyways... Drinking Beverage

You are correct that no amount of people believing something is true makes it factually accurate. Factualness is in no way dependent on the number of people who believe it.

However, generally speaking, the more people who believe something to be true, the more likely it is true. Why? Because people know stuff.....about things....they know about the world even if they don't know they know about the world. The aggregate of this knowledge often makes accurate conclusions. Its called crowd wisdom. The existence of crowd wisdom is a fact that is not in dispute.

PleaseJesus is only making a fallacy if he is claiming that because most of everybody believes in God, therefore God must exist. If PleaseJesus is claiming that because most everyone believes in God, that suggests God exists, then he is not guilty of the fallacy.

Suppose a space alien visited the United States and queried everyone it met, "Who is your leader?" If 99 out of 100 people said Obama, that would be evidence the alien could rely upon to conclude Obama is the leader.

And if the alien dropped down into the middle of a tea party rally, and they answered 'secret Muslims' or 'Iran' or 'Freemasons'? Then the alien would be shit out of luck. Even knowing that Obama is, in fact, our elected President; does that make him the de facto leader? Even that can be debated.

When a majority of people believe in something, it's only proof that a majority of people agree on a belief. When the majority of the world thought the worlds was flat, that didn't make a flat Earth more probable. It is evidence that determines probability, not majority opinion. Gods (however they are defined) either exist or they do not, and no amount of popular opinion affects the answer. Both of your examples are fallacious.

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22-10-2013, 08:58 AM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(22-10-2013 03:38 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  However, generally speaking, the more people who believe something to be true, the more likely it is true. Why? Because people know stuff.....about things....they know about the world even if they don't know they know about the world. The aggregate of this knowledge often makes accurate conclusions. Its called crowd wisdom. The existence of crowd wisdom is a fact that is not in dispute.

Evidence, and not public opinion, determines the likeliness of something being true. Enough evidence can prove that something is absolutely true. If people believe in something that lacks actual evidence (thus the need for faith), then their belief is meaningless.

(22-10-2013 03:38 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  PleaseJesus is only making a fallacy if he is claiming that because most of everybody believes in God, therefore God must exist. If PleaseJesus is claiming that because most everyone believes in God, that suggests God exists, then he is not guilty of the fallacy.

He is absolutely guilty of the fallacy. He's using (fabricated) percentages to add weight to the argument for the existence of a god.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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22-10-2013, 10:49 AM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(22-10-2013 08:58 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  Evidence, and not public opinion, determines the likeliness of something being true. Enough evidence can prove that something is absolutely true. If people believe in something that lacks actual evidence (thus the need for faith), then their belief is meaningless.

You know that sticker crap the fundies were putting on science books in United states of crazy,
well that's what should be printed on them !

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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22-10-2013, 01:47 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(22-10-2013 03:38 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(22-10-2013 02:57 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Your level of ignorance is astounding. The point is that NO AMOUNT of people simply believing in something, by the very nature of them believing in it, makes it factually accurate. This is the very core of the fallacy, one you continue to perpetuate while denying it's use...

Most living organisms lack the mental capacity to even conceptualize a god, so I guess gods don't exists because 99.9999% of all live on this planet cannot acknowledge their presence!

To the best of our knowledge, life in our solar system only exists on Earth. There is none on any of the other 8 commonly recognized planets, or any of their moons, or any other body moving throughout our system. Guess that means that most of the planets would also show a complete lack of god believing creatures inhabiting them! Looks like gods don't exist!

Not that I suppose you'd find either of those two example compelling. Then again you think Pascal's Wager is a sound bet, so my confidence in your ability to comprehend simple probability theory or logic is at a negative anyways... Drinking Beverage

You are correct that no amount of people believing something is true makes it factually accurate. Factualness is in no way dependent on the number of people who believe it.

However, generally speaking, the more people who believe something to be true, the more likely it is true. Why? Because people know stuff.....about things....they know about the world even if they don't know they know about the world. The aggregate of this knowledge often makes accurate conclusions. Its called crowd wisdom. The existence of crowd wisdom is a fact that is not in dispute.

PleaseJesus is only making a fallacy if he is claiming that because most of everybody believes in God, therefore God must exist. If PleaseJesus is claiming that because most everyone believes in God, that suggests God exists, then he is not guilty of the fallacy.

Suppose a space alien visited the United States and queried everyone it met, "Who is your leader?" If 99 out of 100 people said Obama, that would be evidence the alien could rely upon to conclude Obama is the leader.

Obama is the leader. That would be facts in evidence. If the aliens asked another 100 people or the same people "do you believe you have moral accountability?" 99 people would say there is a god they believe in.
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22-10-2013, 01:50 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(22-10-2013 02:57 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(21-10-2013 02:40 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Ad populum is a fallacy, just because most people believe something doesn't make it true. We're not talking about most people or many people, we're talking about nearly everyone who has ever lived, and I'd place atheists at 1% of all people through time. That's why, in part, it's said that the existence of god is self-evident.

You might as well say there are no people just because most people believe people exist! Those who didn't agree... are insane.


Your level of ignorance is astounding. The point is that NO AMOUNT of people simply believing in something, by the very nature of them believing in it, makes it factually accurate. This is the very core of the fallacy, one you continue to perpetuate while denying it's use...

Most living organisms lack the mental capacity to even conceptualize a god, so I guess gods don't exists because 99.9999% of all live on this planet cannot acknowledge their presence!

To the best of our knowledge, life in our solar system only exists on Earth. There is none on any of the other 8 commonly recognized planets, or any of their moons, or any other body moving throughout our system. Guess that means that most of the planets would also show a complete lack of god believing creatures inhabiting them! Looks like gods don't exist!

Not that I suppose you'd find either of those two example compelling. Then again you think Pascal's Wager is a sound bet, so my confidence in your ability to comprehend simple probability theory or logic is at a negative anyways... Drinking Beverage

You are not following, and though it seems deliberate, I'll extend my analogy for you. Are rocks inorganic? Yes. Does that coincide on a Venn diagram with what most people believe about rocks being inorganic? Yes.

It's NOT ad populum if there's a god. There is a god and it is natural for people to believe in such. I'm still waiting for a 99% delusion against fact that MODERN people have in their psyche... perhaps you can name a myth (other than your deluded claim that there is no god) that 80-99% of modern, educated people ascribe to as fact? Drinking Beverage
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22-10-2013, 08:40 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(22-10-2013 01:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You are not following, and though it seems deliberate, I'll extend my analogy for you. Are rocks inorganic? Yes. Does that coincide on a Venn diagram with what most people believe about rocks being inorganic? Yes.

It's NOT ad populum if there's a god. There is a god and it is natural for people to believe in such. I'm still waiting for a 99% delusion against fact that MODERN people have in their psyche... perhaps you can name a myth (other than your deluded claim that there is no god) that 80-99% of modern, educated people ascribe to as fact? Drinking Beverage

I would ask if you're being purposely obtuse, but that would be rhetorical.

If it was taught as a matter of utmost important cultural identity that rocks were organic, as a matter of faith instilled by childhood indoctrination from generation to generation and reinforced by threats of non-existent eternal torture and societal conformity pressure? If it was thought that believing that rocks were organic was of the utmost importance, key to the creation of the universe, the existence of morality, and the keys to eternal afterlife? Yeah, then you might get a majority of people believing in something that is factually inaccurate. Sort of like when the Catholic Church officially endorsed geocentrism or a flat Earth...

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