Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
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25-10-2013, 04:00 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(25-10-2013 12:10 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I mean that there are very smart people with who believe they have evidence for God that they follow rather than deride.

Fixed that for you.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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28-10-2013, 02:30 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(25-10-2013 02:36 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(25-10-2013 12:10 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Facepalm with both palms.

I mean that there are very smart people with evidence for God that they follow rather than deride.

But it was a brilliant free thinker who suggested the "Nobel in Theology" to begin. Triple facepalm.

There is no coming prize for "proving" there is a god since one must want the proof. Prime example, the unflagging failure of yours to pursue any opportunity I offer you to find such proof!

"There are people with evidence for god who already have Nobel Prizes."

Double face palm, plus both feet on my face.

If even one of them had scientific evidence for god, they would present it and the scientific community would run with it. Let's ponder why that hasn't happened... aaaaaand... we're done pondering. They don't have it. It's a personal god, or a god of the gaps. I really don't mind, as they don't let their religion affect their pursuit of knowledge in the real world. At the end of the day, their findings survive peer review by the scientific, not theist, community. I can only imagine the result if the Catholic scientist who first presented the idea of the big bang had decided to test his theory in a church instead of the scientific community. It wouldn't be around today, I can safely assume.

I have read almost all of your links and articles. You have admitted to skipping over quite a few of ours. When you do read them, you go into them with a "how can I debunk this" attitude. I read everything without an agenda. Yes, even the massive apologetic approach to biblical slavery you posted (it took days, thanks for that...). I also read links and articles from non-apologetic, non-Christian sources. You can assert your own facts and use as many fallacies as you like, but at the end of the day, your evidence doesn't come close to proving a god, much less YOUR god, exists. If it ever does, I'll be happy to change my views. Thumbsup

Why would you facepalm rather than admit the facts:

*Scientism is the order of the day since being put forward by Carl Pagan, I mean, Sagan

*Scientism cannot be used to probe or prove anything of a metaphysic nature

*Scientists who dare propound a belief in metaphysics lose tenure, credibility, grant funding, etc. because Scientism owns mainline scholarship

Why is this a facepalm when it should be tears of regret. If we redefine metaphysics as forces whose origins we are yet to determine (see Higgs Boson, et al) then Scientism is hurting, not fostering, scientific exploration! Facepalm, and tears.
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28-10-2013, 04:13 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(28-10-2013 02:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Why would you facepalm rather than admit the facts:

*Scientism is the order of the day since being put forward by Carl Pagan, I mean, Sagan
*Scientism cannot be used to probe or prove anything of a metaphysic nature
*Scientists who dare propound a belief in metaphysics lose tenure, credibility, grant funding, etc. because Scientism owns mainline scholarship

Why is this a facepalm when it should be tears of regret. If we redefine metaphysics as forces whose origins we are yet to determine (see Higgs Boson, et al) then Scientism is hurting, not fostering, scientific exploration! Facepalm, and tears.

Here are the facts: You want a free pass. Unfortunately, I'm not handing any out.

If the supernatural and the metaphysical exist outside our world, then we cannot see them. We cannot know them. We cannot measure, or detect, or predict, them based on any of the rules of our physical world. You sure are right: scientism (haven't heard that in a while... been roaming the creationist web sites again?) cannot tells us anything about things that don't exist in some sort of form or energy we can measure. If they poke into our physical world, then we should be able to discover them. And by 'we' I don't mean a small 'chosen' group of theists. I mean everyone who's willing to do the research. But science can't tell us about things it can't observe.

Here's the problem: Neither. Can. You.

Try, sure. Succeed? No.

So we can all agree that, while great minds are currently dissecting our world to the best of their ability and recording the results, there may indeed be another existence we simply cannot be aware of. But 'may exist' and 'does exist' are two very different statements. One is 'I don't know' and one is 'I do know.' Usually, 'I do know' when referring to the metaphysical has the stink of one of the following all over it:

1. I had a dream;
2. My god spoke to me;
3. I had a feeling;
4. I had a personal experience;
5. Trust me, I read the bible;
6. It's just gotta be that way;

Maybe those are enough to float your boat. Great.

Science is in no way hindering the exploration of the metaphysical. You can go look for it right now. Do the work. Earn it. What science will do, and the thing you're complaining about, is call bullshit if you try and wedge your metaphysical ideas into the physical world and join the two with bad science and logical fallacies. I mean, if you have to pervert geology, science, philosophy, math, and basic common sense just to sell an idea, maybe it's wrong... or simply way beyond your understanding. If it's the latter, maybe you ought to stop talking about things you don't understand.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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28-10-2013, 05:59 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(25-10-2013 12:10 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I mean that there are very smart people with evidence for God that they follow rather than deride.

In my experience, there are very smart people who believe in God despite the fact they have no evidence. Fair enough. Cognitive dissonance and learned helplessness and all that shit and whatnot. To each their own. No skin off my scrotum. Drinking Beverage

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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30-10-2013, 02:15 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(28-10-2013 04:13 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(28-10-2013 02:30 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Why would you facepalm rather than admit the facts:

*Scientism is the order of the day since being put forward by Carl Pagan, I mean, Sagan
*Scientism cannot be used to probe or prove anything of a metaphysic nature
*Scientists who dare propound a belief in metaphysics lose tenure, credibility, grant funding, etc. because Scientism owns mainline scholarship

Why is this a facepalm when it should be tears of regret. If we redefine metaphysics as forces whose origins we are yet to determine (see Higgs Boson, et al) then Scientism is hurting, not fostering, scientific exploration! Facepalm, and tears.

Here are the facts: You want a free pass. Unfortunately, I'm not handing any out.

If the supernatural and the metaphysical exist outside our world, then we cannot see them. We cannot know them. We cannot measure, or detect, or predict, them based on any of the rules of our physical world. You sure are right: scientism (haven't heard that in a while... been roaming the creationist web sites again?) cannot tells us anything about things that don't exist in some sort of form or energy we can measure. If they poke into our physical world, then we should be able to discover them. And by 'we' I don't mean a small 'chosen' group of theists. I mean everyone who's willing to do the research. But science can't tell us about things it can't observe.

Here's the problem: Neither. Can. You.

Try, sure. Succeed? No.

So we can all agree that, while great minds are currently dissecting our world to the best of their ability and recording the results, there may indeed be another existence we simply cannot be aware of. But 'may exist' and 'does exist' are two very different statements. One is 'I don't know' and one is 'I do know.' Usually, 'I do know' when referring to the metaphysical has the stink of one of the following all over it:

1. I had a dream;
2. My god spoke to me;
3. I had a feeling;
4. I had a personal experience;
5. Trust me, I read the bible;
6. It's just gotta be that way;

Maybe those are enough to float your boat. Great.

Science is in no way hindering the exploration of the metaphysical. You can go look for it right now. Do the work. Earn it. What science will do, and the thing you're complaining about, is call bullshit if you try and wedge your metaphysical ideas into the physical world and join the two with bad science and logical fallacies. I mean, if you have to pervert geology, science, philosophy, math, and basic common sense just to sell an idea, maybe it's wrong... or simply way beyond your understanding. If it's the latter, maybe you ought to stop talking about things you don't understand.

You are being illogical here. If several hundred people saw Jesus die on the cross and then saw Him resurrected, how would they not have empirical evidence?

If 2,000,000 Jewish people saw the fiery mountain, the pillar of cloud, and ate the manna, how would they not have empirical evidence?

And if the Bible is proved to be reliable as a collection of documents, that can also predict the future before it occurs/has occured...

You do know the Bible says things like:

*Many will come in Jesus's name to start false religions and cults

*A worldwide false religious system will be based in Rome

*People will always have to struggle and suffer to achieve prosperity/to work despite any advances

*Women will experience inequity and be discriminated against by patriarchy always

*Nations and empires that persecute the Jewish people will be broken and destroyed/their power and wealth sapped

*The Jewish Messiah will be worshipped worldwide by non-Jews

*The Romans will destroy the temple, then scatter the Jews in diaspora; after two millennia they will return to Israel with their culture and scriptures intact

Etc.
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30-10-2013, 02:37 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(30-10-2013 02:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You are being illogical here. If several hundred people saw Jesus die on the cross and then saw Him resurrected, how would they not have empirical evidence?

Trust me, I read the bible.

Here's what's logical. I know people are capable of believing anything. I have proof in the form of a world full of different religious myths, all of which cannot be true but all of which are regarded to be true by believers. Me personally, I haven't seen anything like that. I've got no rational reason to believe it without having the experience myself or seeing proof outside the bible.

(30-10-2013 02:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If 2,000,000 Jewish people saw the fiery mountain, the pillar of cloud, and ate the manna, how would they not have empirical evidence?

Trust me, I read the bible.

I haven't seen anything like that. I've got no rational reason to believe it without having the experience myself or seeing proof outside the bible.

(30-10-2013 02:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And if the Bible is proved to be reliable as a collection of documents, that can also predict the future before it occurs/has occured...

Trust me, I read the bible.

(30-10-2013 02:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You do know the Bible says things like:
*Many will come in Jesus's name to start false religions and cults
*A worldwide false religious system will be based in Rome
*People will always have to struggle and suffer to achieve prosperity/to work despite any advances
*Women will experience inequity and be discriminated against by patriarchy always
*Nations and empires that persecute the Jewish people will be broken and destroyed/their power and wealth sapped
*The Jewish Messiah will be worshipped worldwide by non-Jews
*The Romans will destroy the temple, then scatter the Jews in diaspora; after two millennia they will return to Israel with their culture and scriptures intact

Trust me, I read the bible.

Here is a real prediction. I'd be impressed if these were in the Bible:
In 2000 years, two great towers will fall in a western nation, yet to be created, after being struck by two great flying birds made of metal;
In 1940 years, a great destructive fire will fall on a neighbor of China, bringing an end to a global conflict;

Here's a bad prediction that I can make based on human nature. I betcha it comes true before the world ends:
A great death will fall upon a prosperous nation, and they will be humbled in spite of their great accomplishments and their people will turn to a false god;

This is what I love about our day and age. It's harder for BS legends to survive. If 2,000,000 saw a fiery mountain, I'm pretty sure I'd be watching a YouTube video of it. Somebody ascends to heaven on a horse? Boom. Got it on the ol smartphone. But stories like that are dying out, because there's no longer an excuse for not having proof. The old saying comes to mind: "Look, a UFO! Grab the worst camera you have!"

I'm surprised you continue to use the word of the bible as proof here. I get that you believe it... let's leave it at that and move on to evidence that doesn't require absolute faith in one of many religious texts.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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31-10-2013, 10:29 AM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(30-10-2013 02:37 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(30-10-2013 02:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You are being illogical here. If several hundred people saw Jesus die on the cross and then saw Him resurrected, how would they not have empirical evidence?

Trust me, I read the bible.

Here's what's logical. I know people are capable of believing anything. I have proof in the form of a world full of different religious myths, all of which cannot be true but all of which are regarded to be true by believers. Me personally, I haven't seen anything like that. I've got no rational reason to believe it without having the experience myself or seeing proof outside the bible.

(30-10-2013 02:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If 2,000,000 Jewish people saw the fiery mountain, the pillar of cloud, and ate the manna, how would they not have empirical evidence?

Trust me, I read the bible.

I haven't seen anything like that. I've got no rational reason to believe it without having the experience myself or seeing proof outside the bible.

(30-10-2013 02:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And if the Bible is proved to be reliable as a collection of documents, that can also predict the future before it occurs/has occured...

Trust me, I read the bible.

(30-10-2013 02:15 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You do know the Bible says things like:
*Many will come in Jesus's name to start false religions and cults
*A worldwide false religious system will be based in Rome
*People will always have to struggle and suffer to achieve prosperity/to work despite any advances
*Women will experience inequity and be discriminated against by patriarchy always
*Nations and empires that persecute the Jewish people will be broken and destroyed/their power and wealth sapped
*The Jewish Messiah will be worshipped worldwide by non-Jews
*The Romans will destroy the temple, then scatter the Jews in diaspora; after two millennia they will return to Israel with their culture and scriptures intact

Trust me, I read the bible.

Here is a real prediction. I'd be impressed if these were in the Bible:
In 2000 years, two great towers will fall in a western nation, yet to be created, after being struck by two great flying birds made of metal;
In 1940 years, a great destructive fire will fall on a neighbor of China, bringing an end to a global conflict;

Here's a bad prediction that I can make based on human nature. I betcha it comes true before the world ends:
A great death will fall upon a prosperous nation, and they will be humbled in spite of their great accomplishments and their people will turn to a false god;

This is what I love about our day and age. It's harder for BS legends to survive. If 2,000,000 saw a fiery mountain, I'm pretty sure I'd be watching a YouTube video of it. Somebody ascends to heaven on a horse? Boom. Got it on the ol smartphone. But stories like that are dying out, because there's no longer an excuse for not having proof. The old saying comes to mind: "Look, a UFO! Grab the worst camera you have!"

I'm surprised you continue to use the word of the bible as proof here. I get that you believe it... let's leave it at that and move on to evidence that doesn't require absolute faith in one of many religious texts.

Yours are bad examples since it is arguable that the Twin Towers event is encoded in the Bible, and since Peter predicted that when elements are split at the atomic level there would be "great noise and great heat".

But you can add those to the prophecies list, now. Thanks!

But perhaps instead of trolling here on my posts, you will respond and explain how the Christians foreknew that a worldwide false religious system would be based in Rome, since the disciples/apostles founded churches between Rome and Israel, Asia Minor and Spain, etc, etc?
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31-10-2013, 11:48 AM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(31-10-2013 10:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Yours are bad examples since it is arguable that the Twin Towers event is encoded in the Bible, and since Peter predicted that when elements are split at the atomic level there would be "great noise and great heat".

Trust me, I read the bible.

Sure, why not. In fact, I'll bet the finite amount of text in the bible can be interpreted to, oops, I mean predict, an infinite amount of events. I mean, Peter is so wonderfully specific about his atomic theory, it's a wonder we don't dump the textbooks and simply use his incredibly detailed, accurate descriptions of how things work on an atomic level. Unquenchable fire, great light and heat... it's all there. He probably even has a reference to the Avogadro constant. Not the exact value, of course, but he might mention the word 'number' somewhere. Who need's science? Weeping

(31-10-2013 10:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But you can add those to the prophecies list, now. Thanks!

You add them, please, I insist. And take full credit for them.

(31-10-2013 10:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But perhaps instead of trolling here on my posts, you will respond and explain how the Christians foreknew that a worldwide false religious system would be based in Rome, since the disciples/apostles founded churches between Rome and Israel, Asia Minor and Spain, etc, etc?

The same way I foreknew that a great death would fall upon a prosperous nation. How did I know that? Because I promise you it will happen. Can you explain that, PJ? Can you explain why my prediction will come true?

I'm not trolling, I'm arguing against your claims. Is that trolling now? Would you like me to be quiet and obedient? Do ya miss those old days where religion couldn't be questioned?

I won't stop, because this is an atheist website and that's encouraged here. You claim to be here to learn, but then call any conflicting opinion 'trolling' or 'bad evidence' or 'a bad example.' Unfortunately, you don't get to judge your own work. The unregistered lurkers who read these exchanges are left to think for themselves. Drives you crazy, right? People making up their own minds. I'm not even really debating you. I'm simply showing the other side of the coin. You're pretty much hopeless. I don't think anyone here has any delusions of you ever yielding to even a single bit of information that goes against your theology.

'Hmm,' they wonder. This theist PJ thinks the bible predicted atomic reactions based on the vague words light and heat. This theist PJ claims vast knowledge in every field that is presented to him regardless of topic, and often plagiarizes his rebuttals from creationist websites. This theist claims to be here to learn, then ignores questions, claims his own victory, and redirects conversations to topics that hide behind presupposition. Maybe... I don't want to be a theist anymore.

I ain't going away. But enjoy your stay here. We're much more tolerant than your Christian friends.

Keep pumping out your claims and assertions. You're doing more for atheism than I ever could. Big Grin

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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31-10-2013, 12:02 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
On that point, I'd encourage the lurkers here to do a search of PJ's posts and arguments. You'll see a pattern.

For example, he simply dismisses my Twin Towers prophecy as a 'bad example' and then says it's arguable that the bible predicts it. Does he say why it is a bad example?

1. Is it too specific? Shouldn't a prediction be specific? Otherwise, it's open to any convenient interpretation. Or does it threaten his belief system? Think for yourselves.

2. Is it really in the bible? Does the bible really mention two towers being toppled by two metal flying birds? Or is he going to try and stretch some vague text to mean that. If you show that same text to another theist, will they (without revealing it to them) come to the conclusion that it does predict the attack on the Twin Towers. Think for yourselves.

3. Does me not being able to answer a question mean that the question is valuable, or correct, or that there is only one answer? Or is that simply showmanship with no substance? Think for yourselves.

4. Is it actually possible to be an expert on every topic? PJ will claim victory against anyone he debates. I challenge you to find a post where he says "I actually have no idea, I'm not qualified to debate this." NOT. ONE. How is that possible? Think for yourselves.

Thanks for visiting TTA Forums. You may question any idea here.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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31-10-2013, 01:18 PM
RE: Pascal's Wager Expanded Edition
(31-10-2013 11:48 AM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(31-10-2013 10:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Yours are bad examples since it is arguable that the Twin Towers event is encoded in the Bible, and since Peter predicted that when elements are split at the atomic level there would be "great noise and great heat".

Trust me, I read the bible.

Sure, why not. In fact, I'll bet the finite amount of text in the bible can be interpreted to, oops, I mean predict, an infinite amount of events. I mean, Peter is so wonderfully specific about his atomic theory, it's a wonder we don't dump the textbooks and simply use his incredibly detailed, accurate descriptions of how things work on an atomic level. Unquenchable fire, great light and heat... it's all there. He probably even has a reference to the Avogadro constant. Not the exact value, of course, but he might mention the word 'number' somewhere. Who need's science? Weeping

(31-10-2013 10:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But you can add those to the prophecies list, now. Thanks!

You add them, please, I insist. And take full credit for them.

(31-10-2013 10:29 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  But perhaps instead of trolling here on my posts, you will respond and explain how the Christians foreknew that a worldwide false religious system would be based in Rome, since the disciples/apostles founded churches between Rome and Israel, Asia Minor and Spain, etc, etc?

The same way I foreknew that a great death would fall upon a prosperous nation. How did I know that? Because I promise you it will happen. Can you explain that, PJ? Can you explain why my prediction will come true?

I'm not trolling, I'm arguing against your claims. Is that trolling now? Would you like me to be quiet and obedient? Do ya miss those old days where religion couldn't be questioned?

I won't stop, because this is an atheist website and that's encouraged here. You claim to be here to learn, but then call any conflicting opinion 'trolling' or 'bad evidence' or 'a bad example.' Unfortunately, you don't get to judge your own work. The unregistered lurkers who read these exchanges are left to think for themselves. Drives you crazy, right? People making up their own minds. I'm not even really debating you. I'm simply showing the other side of the coin. You're pretty much hopeless. I don't think anyone here has any delusions of you ever yielding to even a single bit of information that goes against your theology.

'Hmm,' they wonder. This theist PJ thinks the bible predicted atomic reactions based on the vague words light and heat. This theist PJ claims vast knowledge in every field that is presented to him regardless of topic, and often plagiarizes his rebuttals from creationist websites. This theist claims to be here to learn, then ignores questions, claims his own victory, and redirects conversations to topics that hide behind presupposition. Maybe... I don't want to be a theist anymore.

I ain't going away. But enjoy your stay here. We're much more tolerant than your Christian friends.

Keep pumping out your claims and assertions. You're doing more for atheism than I ever could. Big Grin

Let me explain further re: Peter's prophecy. The prevailing theory from the Greeks forward was that the atom could not be reduced further--that's what an atom was. Peter predicted that when atoms were to be split that tremendous noise and heat would ensure. A tiny amount of material is detonated to create a tremendous release of energy in a thermonuclear reaction. Just because the Bible is, as always, understating, and just because Avogadro wasn't yet born is no excuse for being so dense. I agree with Sam Harris--I have reasons to believe. Do you?
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