Pascal's wager answered
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25-06-2017, 09:37 AM
Pascal's wager answered
So I had a discussion with a Christian and they went to the end all be all. Pascal's wager. This gets old, so out of frustration i flipped it. I didn't even think about the words that were coming out of my mouth but it actually worked so let me paraphrase here.

Them: what if you're wrong?
Me: I don't think you understand my position. Even if i knew 100% you're god was real i would rather burn in hell than follow someone so evil here is how he's evil...
Them...
Me: what if your wrong?
Then: then i have lived a moral life and there is nothing after.
Me: and what about the gay guy who killed himself because your religion says being gay is evil. Not only is he not going to hell if your wrong, but he ended his life prematurely because of something your church says. His life is just over and for no reason. Is causing someone to kill them self moral?
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25-06-2017, 09:47 AM (This post was last modified: 25-06-2017 09:58 AM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Pascal's wager answered
I have often used that point when talking to Christians and they bring up the Wager. I would rather be tortured for all eternity than bow to a creature that demands my submission at gunpoint. I don't think most Christians realize that we're doing their god something of a favor by not being convinced that their claims are real-- because their claims are fucking awful.

Of course, we also like to point out that it's potentially far worse to worship Jesus as a god, only to find out that this has seriously pissed off the correct god(dess), since the punishments meted out by Allah and a few other barbaric deities appear to be much, much worse than the Christian version. Pascal's Wager fails because it presumes that submission to a repulsive deity just in case its threats are real is an ethical action, and it presumes that the default is their own particular religious belief, rather than recognizing that there are many thousands of options other than "none".

Almost literally every day, on here, we have a new thread documenting the terrible impact of Christian (or Muslim or Hindu, etc.) bigotry on people in this world. Much of it is utterly heartbreaking. I suspect that, if there is a god, then this being would rather have all humans say it doesn't exist and be decent to one another on our own than to have to watch the awful, vile behaviors in its name from the various tribes of humans who claim to worship it.

Edit to Add: Shamelessly stolen from Pablo's post in the "Laugh at Religion" thread...

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"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-06-2017, 09:53 AM
RE: Pascal's wager answered
Pascal wager is just fraud. Contrary to Pascal delusion by believing in god you lose - your time, your freedom and your money and gain nothing as there is no evidence for existence of god. There is also obvious if curiously omitted by Pascal possibility of believing in wrong god.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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25-06-2017, 10:03 AM
RE: Pascal's wager answered
Blaise Pascal was a catholic theologian. He sure as shit wasn't talking about any baptist god with his bullshit.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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25-06-2017, 10:03 AM
RE: Pascal's wager answered
Pascal's Wager is simply "Hedging your bets".

The problem with that can be summed up like horses in the Kentucky Derby.

In reality only one horse wins. So for Pascal's Wager to truly work you'd have to bet on all the horses at the same time as being the winner. Nobody in reality does that.

Horse 1. "What if you are wrong and Jesus is the winner"
Horse 2. "What if you are wrong and Allah is the winner"
Horse 3. "What if you are wrong and Yahweh is the winner"
Horse 4. "What if you are wrong and Vishnu is the winner"
Horse 5. "What if you are wrong and Buddha is the winner"
Horse 6. "What if you are wrong and Apollo is the winner".

If it is about playing it safe and making a safe bet "just in case" than to be safe you'd have to bet on all those options as being the winner at the same time. That is why the argument of Pascal's Wager does not work logically.

The other aspect of that fallacy is probability. Nobody treats claims as equally true, people put weight, when it comes to religion, on their personal bias.

In objective science however, on issues of probability, science does not care about fairness nor does it treat all claims as equal or even a 50/50 split. It speaks in terms of probability and likelyhood based on objective neutral prior data.

Poetry by Brian37(poems by an atheist) Also on Facebook as BrianJames Rational Poet and Twitter Brianrrs37
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25-06-2017, 10:21 AM
RE: Pascal's wager answered
In my opinion there are two major problems with Pascal's wager.

1. There is a vast field for the race. You can't back all of the runners and there is no form book to enable you to have any objective reason for favouring any one cult over all of the others.

2. You can randomly pick one, follow all of its restrictions but if you don't truly believe, you lose anyway. There are probably some gods who can be fooled. This would certainly be a better choice than one those that cannot, but then a simple lie might be just as effective which makes actual insincere worship unnecessary.

“I am not responsible for actions of the imaginary version of me you have inside your head.” - John Scalzi

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25-06-2017, 10:51 AM
RE: Pascal's wager answered
Pascal's wager is just a hand-waving rationalization for what people already want to believe or are afraid not to believe. It gives philosophy a bad name.
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25-06-2017, 11:05 AM
RE: Pascal's wager answered
Cthulhu's Corollary to Pascal's Wager: What if you picked the wrong god?
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25-06-2017, 11:10 AM (This post was last modified: 25-06-2017 11:38 AM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Pascal's wager answered
I feel sorry for the little fella named after a porn star. In his quixotic quest to use skepticism and stoicism to confuse and befuddle the unbeliever to a state of such despair and confusion that he must embrace God despite himself, he instead convinced himself to the point where he found himself grasping at straws to maintain his own belief. In the end the best he could come up with was "fake it 'til you make it." In the end he finally wagered on the position that suffering was the natural state of man and became a ascete refusing all medical care or attention to his repeated violent illnesses in an effort to hasten the coin's drop. Unsurprisingly, an autopsy revealed brain damage. I find his a cautionary tale that the Law of the Excluded Middle can drive you batshit bonkers and Aristotle was a sick twisted bastard who knew exactly what he was doing and what madness it would cause. Pascal did good math and science when he was a kid though.

Whenever someone mentions Pascal I can't help but feel like an old guy behind the counter at a gas station in the middle of nowhere. Big Grin



There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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25-06-2017, 11:19 AM (This post was last modified: 25-06-2017 11:27 AM by EvolutionKills.)
RE: Pascal's wager answered
Pascal's Wager is bad math, because it ignores the possibility of infinite forgotten gods and ones yet to be imagined. Betting on any single one of them is effectively betting against infinity.

Which, for the uninitiated or the math-illiterate, are really shit odds.





Also, do you really think that any such god worth his salt would be ignorant as to the basis of such a mercenary bet? A fire insurance policy on death?

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