Past Life Regressions.
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01-01-2012, 07:43 AM
RE: Past Life Regressions.
(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  Ok I will go through this point by point but first of all, you talk about your sources a lot, I would like to know your sources, please. I know there are good sources even in the esotheric circles. Books, people, videos? Gimme Smile
The first one is Benjamin Creme. I know he makes a lot of wild claims, but we've seen most of them confirmed in practice. Both personally and our network of people around the world and their relatives who had nothing to do with esotericism at all. He's the most reader-friendly and modern source. The website also contains free online books and audio+video material.
I highly appreciate Creme also because he is very well-informed and sensible about the topics of politics, economy and finances. He's the voice of reason calling absent-minded spiritual folks to the reality of economic crisis and its causes. His magazine always features many economists, diplomats, politicians, activists and scientists. His meetings never attract devotees (he doesn't really like devotees in classical sense), they're filled with people of all opinions and life styles. I'd say this is how spirituality for grownups looks like.

Creme of course has recommended reading, most notably Alice A. Bailey and her books written together with "The Tibetyan." Stuff like A Treatise on White Magic, Letters on Occult Meditation, Initiations Human and Solar... Very few people can read, much less understand these books. They require very solid intuitive skills and years of experience with easier reading.
Sometimes I read Annie Besant, she's a less precise source, but more reader-friendly. Plus of course many miscellaneous authors who measure up to the standard.

(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  I know it is very convenient to have a website for such things but I asked for your opinion not what that guy is saying. He does not state any sources and the only science site he links can't even name the people that are working on the articles, not very trustworthy.

So first of all, how do you know that these dimensions do really exist?
Where did you get the thing with the 7 sublevels from?
Well, the 7 dimensions with 7 sub-levels each is sort of a classic model, used by many traditions. (this is what the website is about) I like to compare it with 7 dimensions of String theory. I didn't come up with the 7-7 model, but looks like everyone in the business has one, so I might as well use it.

I use it to cathegorize phenomena. I compare my observations with written description and put square peg into square hole. Some phenomena I attribute to etheric levels, some to astral, some to the soul. But I'm always counting with encountering something that my sources do not include. My sources explicitly prefer information useful for personal development and harmless, should it fall into wrong hands.

(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  I have to disagree here. Own experience or a shared experience is not objective. Just hypothetical example: 5 People sitting in a circle, meditating together, hands are touching to have a closed circle so the energy can flow properly, getting a vision at the same time > not objective at all
Not exactly. That too, but every case is different. Some phenomena are external, for example if a fluorescent tube light starts making weird sound at the beginning of session and stops exactly when we stop. (which it never did for past 2 years) But some things are just too weird. Mr Creme in every issue of his magazine publishes people's stories of these encounters.

(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  Then again you are reading a lot of material, reports of others, maybe you are in a few forums with this general topic, maybe a chatroom or two. So alot of these things may sound pretty good and you wanna try them, too. As you do already believe in this it is easy for your mind to produce the pictures and feelings and emotions that you want to experience in that moment.
Yes, this is exactly why I don't do that. Expected results are almost useless, they're only of personal value. I specially appreciate the unknown, unexpected results that can not be produced by me.
Anyway, New Age folks aren't very interested in my area. They think Reiki is the best thing that happened to them and that with exercising their merkaba they can vibrate into a higher dimension right away.

(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  What work at hand? Isn't it important to understand what exactly you are doing? If nothing else then to improve your skills!
No, this is unfortunately not the case. We must stay clear of the desire to gather knowledge and skills for personal empowerment and prestige, that is so frequent in New Age community. I won't say much, it's more than personal, it also includes other people. As with security clearance in a hierarchy, there is an assignment and only minimal necessary amount of knowledge and borrowed instruments. And the very work itself is extremely abstract. How can I describe work in subtle worlds, in subtle bodies, subtle energies, where thoughts are things and ideas are forces? There is no sword, chalice, chalk pentagram on the floor, no measuring device except of our sensitivity, which in some rare individuals is truly great, otherwise obviously there would be no way to work intelligently. Who is willing and able to work under such conditions? Take it or leave it. I'm willing to take it, not hoping to prove anything.

My hopes of tangible proof lie much lower, in dark matter or so-called etheric world. Science is materialistic, it progresses from the more solid to the less solid and in this case, from visible matter to etheric matter. It most probably won't stumble upon anything astral or higher before that, if only because of linear development of detecting technologies.

(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  I would really like to meet your sources, they do have phantastic ideas!
What about your own opinion or factual knowledge?
If I say my sources say, that means I can't have any opinion on that topic. It's beyond my experience.
I only read up on the topic, because someone else might have experience with that and I'll need to know to recognize his experience for what it is.
For example, Robert Allan Monroe writes about encountering his soul, other personalities under the same soul and even his monad. (don't ask what it is) He of course uses his own words, though in a highly descriptive way.

(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  Do you really think all esotherics think so, or is it only your source? I used to be esotheric for a long time. Very deep into the whole thing but I did not think so. How does anyone know what the Big Bang was supposed to be, how do esoterics know (which means there was prove at some point) about counterparts of atoms in other spiritual levels/realms/callitwhatyouwant. I'd like to see the scientific studies to all that knowledge.
If you want to see scientific studies, arm yourself with patience. The linear progress of science will at most only confirm the nature of etheric world. Which is awesome enough, but only a beginning. I tried to present the available scientific studies here. There seem to be a few works lightly touching upon the physics of astral world, but they're far too vague and ahead of our time.

Of course, not all esotericists think the same. There are other traditions. The Wicca crowd, the Aleister Crowley crowd, the folks with golden bough and kinky rituals. But their methods and theories are absolutely inadequate for purposes of modern esotericist in modern scientific culture. Our group tried all on the market and nothing else worked for long. I found most useful the sources that come from the group known as Great White Brotherhood or the Hierarchy. They're most demanding and secretive, but also most sensible of them all. Which is a big plus, in the craziness that is New Age sub-culture.

But mystics of all ages built on their experience. They disciplined mind and body to gain control over their perception and development. Some of those who developed ahead of general population remained behind to provide guidance and lift the veil of what lies ahead of us, in terms of personal and global development. They're called the GWB. Many people claim they received texts from them, but only few writers measure up to their quality, style and kind of people they pick for disciples. There are schools, such as Theosophy, originally founded by these disciples.
This is basically the story of GWB. It's up to you what you make of it. Many people were given a satisfactory proof, like an encounter with a member of GWB, after they started doing some work for GWB. Others met them as a coincidence. With our group the encounters were fairly frequent and quite typical.

(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  And again I have to bring in some George Carlin
"The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles…hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worlwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages…And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet…the planet…the planet isn’t going anywhere. WE ARE!"
With all respect to George Carlin, he's not an esotericist. He wouldn't be aware of etheric world even if it would bite his ass. Maybe the rock and lava of Earth isn't going anywhere. But according to some esoteric principles the development of humanity is very important for development of lower kingdoms, including mineral. Not yet, we as a humanity don't really act as a coordinated group, (more like a colony of voracious bacteria) we're going right now through the crises of maturing and starting to think globally. But once we're past this crisis and achieved a sustainable existence on Earth, we will help the living kingdoms immensely.
Without biosphere (and civilization) present, evolution in subtle aspects of the planetary organism would be extremely slow, if not impossible. Of course, should we choose to destroy ourselves, in a few million years our house pets might evolve into more grateful tenants than us.

(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  If these kind of theories are for studying purposes only or FYI they are meant to be studied and believed. So again, how can you know that this is correct?

Esotericism is not a religion, it doesn't need to be spread wide and far into population and taught to children. Such books are meant for those who can benefit from them. You'd have better to read the introductory remarks from the book and decide for yourself if it's trying to push you into belief.
As for how I know that it is correct, why do you ask? I don't know if that's correct, I only know for sure about certain minor aspects and that made me willing to stay tuned and see more. If you're not interested, that's your right, everyone needs their optimal path of development.


(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  You see, this is a problem. If one claims to know that the soul is reincarnating again and again, then one of the things to know and directly connected to that knowledge is, "what is going to happen with my soul when humanity ceases to exist?" So where does the soul reincarnate to when there is no earth anymore?
Here esotericists paint a glorious image for us. The end of need for reincarnation is merely a beginning of ascent. The planetary life in flesh is, so to speak, a bottom of the universe. The soul as we know it is merely a temporary supportive structure. Those on Earth who outgrow it may seem almost like gods to us, but they too are just fellow disciples a few steps higher, compared to what lives out there.
In relative freedom of solar and galactic environment it is possible to develop into beings in comparison to whom we're about as sentient as an iron plough. And nobody can tell where this development ends. Nobody can consider himself as being finished with the eternal discipleship.

(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  Yes, it is the point, exactly that was the starting point.
Therapy with all kinds of methods have worked. But making one believe that he had just experienced a past life when in fact he "just" digged out a real trauma that he masked with some visions is dangerous. The brain has reasons to repress certain things. And if "forced" to release some it will still fight for your sanity so rather than letting the worst possible stuff that has happened to you drop on you like a bomb it will mask it as a "memory of your past life".
You make it sound like past lives were invented for no reason and stamped on people for the sake of therapist's beliefs.
This is not the case. Sigmund Freud succesfully worked with regression into this life, into suppressed memories in hypnosis. But when other therapists tried the same, in some cases they did not find a cause of trauma anywhere in this life of a patient, not even in birth. However, they managed to search in even earlier times, before birth and in past lives. That must have been a great surprise for them...
As an example of this spontaneous discovery, there's Dr. Helen Wambach who worked since 1955 at psychiatric department of clinic in Long Branch north of New York. She processed 1038 patients and wrote books about their cases.

(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  Yes we can, depending on your upbringing everything can be traumatizing.
# traumatized because the parents shout at each other
# traumatized because of seeing a car accident
# traumatized because of having an accident
# traumatized because never getting a sleep over when other kids did
# traumatized because of getting soap in the eye

Do you know how easy it is to traumatize a person over nothing? It is even easier to do that to yourself.
All examples you list are external interventions. They do not apply at the therapist's couch and regression therapy. And most notably, there is no personal motivation. These people don't want to feel miserably and neither they have any detectable reason and yet they do. And regression therapy can not find a cause in their lifetime or birth. It however can find a cause in their previous lives. That's all there is to it.

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01-01-2012, 10:17 AM (This post was last modified: 01-01-2012 10:22 AM by Chas.)
RE: Past Life Regressions.
(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  The first one is Benjamin Creme. I know he makes a lot of wild claims, but we've seen most of them confirmed in practice. Both personally and our network of people around the world and their relatives who had nothing to do with esotericism at all. He's the most reader-friendly and modern source. The website also contains free online books and audio+video material. ...

This just another form of mysticism with no evidence of existence.

Hitchens would be rolling over in his grave to have a quote from him in your signature.
(30-12-2011 02:42 PM)Luminon Wrote:  
(30-12-2011 10:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  I suggest you read this Scientific American article.
I can't view the whole article for free, but in brief:
Scientific American Wrote:In Brief
1. Most of us report that we believe in supernatural powers such as clairvoyance and telepathy and in the existence of ghosts.
Yes, but we don't all have the same reasons for believing so. Most of people's reasons are not convincing enough. They don't take a long, detailed or repeated look at the ghost.

It's hard to take a detailed look at something that's not there.

Quote:
Scientific American Wrote:2. The widespread reports of paranormal experiences very likely derive from many of the same mechanisms that help us make decisions in daily life.
Again, that's possible, if the reports are of that kind. But there is so few people like me, that I'd be really surprised if behind my observations there would be a common neurologic mechanism. I'm pretty sure it's something uncommon, otherwise there would be scientific studies about it.

"..so few people like me.." Really, this is a pretty good sign of delusion.

Quote:
Scientific American Wrote:3. Research suggests that a highly active right-brain hemisphere may cause someone to be particularly susceptible to improbable beliefs.
I happen to know that this is not my case. Quite opposite, with me the left hemisphere is over-active and right hemisphere is rather lazy. I tend to focus internally on complex phenomena and abstract models of thought. I don't see much merit in external world, relationships, having fun, visiting nature and general socializing. Thought is emphasized, emotion is neglected. Hell, even most of my music is bizarre, complex but without emotion.
...

Really? You've had MRI studies done on your brain to confirm this?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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01-01-2012, 12:37 PM
RE: Past Life Regressions.
(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  The first one is Benjamin Creme. I know he makes a lot of wild claims, but we've seen most of them confirmed in practice.
Checked. As far as I see it, he is just another "prophet". The only difference is that he is esotheric. Which I actually do rate as a good thing because at least from my experience, esotheric people don't push people into anything. (good thing)

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  He's the most reader-friendly and modern source. The website also contains free online books and audio+video material.
...
His meetings never attract devotees (he doesn't really like devotees in classical sense), they're filled with people of all opinions and life styles. I'd say this is how spirituality for grownups looks like.
First I wouldn't say he is the most reader friendly or modern source. He simply has his own style.
About people with opinions and spirituality for grown ups. Well at least in the circles I was, the people I met, all of them were normal people who simply had in common the belief in the supernatural (esotheric style). Some seemed a bit crazy, some completely normal. So this is nothing special inside these circles. Having an open mind and being accepting is what makes it seem like "grown up" but looking into the actual belief system they are not. They just use more technical terms than a few years ago, the stuff they say is still the same.

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  " Stuff like A Treatise on White Magic, Letters on Occult Meditation, Initiations Human and Solar... Very few people can read, much less understand these books. They require very solid intuitive skills and years of experience with easier reading.
I am positive I could read and understand what this person writes because (as I mentioned before) I was very much into witchcraft and everything related for many years.
Books/Letters etc of this kind are always based on opinion. There is never any real prove. At least nothing that passes the lines of "did you ever have the feeling that..... and then....." It is a standard used in esotheric circles just like the "but the bible says so" for christians.

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Well, the 7 dimensions with 7 sub-levels each is sort of a classic model, used by many traditions. (this is what the website is about) I like to compare it with 7 dimensions of String theory. I didn't come up with the 7-7 model, but looks like everyone in the business has one, so I might as well use it.
The whole thing about 7<insert concept> is that 7 it's a magical number.

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Some phenomena are external, for example if a fluorescent tube light starts making weird sound at the beginning of session and stops exactly when we stop. (which it never did for past 2 years) But some things are just too weird.
All external phenomena have an explanation. Flickering lights as much as rising temperature and appearing light balls and whatever they all are.
But if you want it to be supernatural, of course it is.

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Expected results are almost useless, they're only of personal value. I specially appreciate the unknown, unexpected results that can not be produced by me.
And back to the subconcsious mind Wink

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(30-12-2011 07:04 PM)Leela Wrote:  What work at hand? Isn't it important to understand what exactly you are doing? If nothing else then to improve your skills!
No, this is unfortunately not the case. We must stay clear of the desire to gather knowledge and skills for personal empowerment and prestige, that is so frequent in New Age community.
Says who? If one doesn't look for answers and doesn't want to understand the details of what they are doing it shows they are either lazy minds or already too delusional. Because there is no lack of interest if you are so deep into a topic.

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  As with security clearance in a hierarchy, there is an assignment and only minimal necessary amount of knowledge and borrowed instruments. And the very work itself is extremely abstract.
I know that system better than you might think.
Sometimes you just promise you stay quiet sometimes you sign actual contracts.
From my experience, once you are in such circles (exactly as how you just described), there is not a lot left of own thougts and critical thinking. Accept or face the consequences... Sorry for you, man.

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  How can I describe work in subtle worlds, in subtle bodies, subtle energies, where thoughts are things and ideas are forces?
Back in my days I did have students. And I actually made them ask about things and if they didn't I pointed out that they should ask about things. No matter how weird or unlogical those things might seem. And I would always provide answers (of course answers inside the ideology of esotheric). In this was about everything, how energies work as much as all the usual concepts that seem less difficult.

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  Who is willing and able to work under such conditions? Take it or leave it. I'm willing to take it, not hoping to prove anything.
I was expecting that.
You are at a point - right here and now, where you decide what way to go. Go the way into questioning your beliefs for real and be honest with yourself or keep going the road you did for some time now and never be sure if the things you believe in are true.
Not an easy desicion, take your time.

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  If you want to see scientific studies, arm yourself with patience.
I will go for it. See you in the other thread I guess.

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  As for how I know that it is correct, why do you ask?
I ask this so maybe you think about it. I get nothing out of asking but you might actually.

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  You make it sound like past lives were invented for no reason and stamped on people for the sake of therapist's beliefs.
No I don't. I say that in order to aggree to something like that, at least one of the parties has to believe in it already. And that is the seed, the rest comes in the session.

(01-01-2012 07:43 AM)Luminon Wrote:  All examples you list are external interventions. They do not apply at the therapist's couch and regression therapy. And most notably, there is no personal motivation. These people don't want to feel miserably and neither they have any detectable reason and yet they do. And regression therapy can not find a cause in their lifetime or birth. It however can find a cause in their previous lives. That's all there is to it.
Incorrect. I listed stuff that people have never been thinking of could be traumas. They just grow up in a certain kind of society where some things are normal for everyone and because you where out of this "normal scheme" you are traumatized. Reasons for being in a therapy are often home made, not everyone in therapy had a life shattering experience. That was my point. You make it, you believe in it, you search for a reason to solve it.
In this case you have your allergy that you can't explain, you don't find a medical reason, you think about the topic some more, you hear about past life regression (there is your seed), you try it (wonder why it worked).




A final word:
It is your desicion what you believe in but in order to stay open minded you need to
keep questioning, otherwise you will walk on one spot until you die.
And as far as your posts go, right now you are not open to questioning things, which should be an alarming signal for you. A leap of faith can never be the prove.

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02-01-2012, 09:48 AM
RE: Past Life Regressions.
(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  First I wouldn't say he is the most reader friendly or modern source. He simply has his own style.
About people with opinions and spirituality for grown ups. Well at least in the circles I was, the people I met, all of them were normal people who simply had in common the belief in the supernatural (esotheric style). Some seemed a bit crazy, some completely normal. So this is nothing special inside these circles. Having an open mind and being accepting is what makes it seem like "grown up" but looking into the actual belief system they are not. They just use more technical terms than a few years ago, the stuff they say is still the same.
I meant actually that he puts together things spiritual and political. Without him I probably still wouldn't be aware of things that influence our lives most, politics and economy. As for technical term, he's actually less technical. Sometimes people ask him to clarify diffcult concepts.

(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  I am positive I could read and understand what this person writes because (as I mentioned before) I was very much into witchcraft and everything related for many years.
Books/Letters etc of this kind are always based on opinion. There is never any real prove. At least nothing that passes the lines of "did you ever have the feeling that..... and then....." It is a standard used in esotheric circles just like the "but the bible says so" for christians.
Well, of course. This is why in the foreword Bailey's books ask the reader to believe only as far as he can in accordance with his experience and conscience. Or something like that.

(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  The whole thing about 7<insert concept> is that 7 it's a magical number.
Whaaat? The only magical numbers I know are certain special bits of data in BMP format. And the inventors of String theory certainly didn't just add this magical number to the 4 dimensions of spacetime.
By the same definition, golden ratio is also a magical number, maybe even pi, Euler's number and other natural constants. Maybe the esoteric universe has its gosh numbers too Tongue

(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  All external phenomena have an explanation. Flickering lights as much as rising temperature and appearing light balls and whatever they all are.
But if you want it to be supernatural, of course it is.
Not flickering lights actually, but why do I bother? I can't explain years of varied daily experience.
External phenomena are rare, but as a former witch you should surely know about etheric body. That's my "area of expertise" and I am directly aware of it. Over the years there were some experiences that allowed me to determine that it indeed exists objectively. So I thought, if there is etheric body, might be there astral body as well? And so on.
For example, I often suffer by headache. This headache feels like certain things hurt me, which are known to esotericists as ajna chakra and two meridians joining it on sides, going back over the top of head and down on the neck. Sometimes left one hurts, sometimes right one.
If you want to say that my subconscious makes my head hurt according to diagrams of etheric body (which I haven't studied) to confirm my beliefs, you're crazier than me Big Grin

(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  And back to the subconcsious mind Wink
Yeah, subconscious mind did it. Answers which explain everything...

(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  Says who? If one doesn't look for answers and doesn't want to understand the details of what they are doing it shows they are either lazy minds or already too delusional. Because there is no lack of interest if you are so deep into a topic.
You don't know me. You don't know how much I think over things, how much evidence I need, what sort of things I've observed and how dilligent I was about it. And I've been doing that most of my life. I only make a lousy job of explaining it to you, if that is even possible. Maybe I shouldn't, it's of no use to you and I won't have any privacy left.
There is too little common ground, your observations of the materialism-defying phenomena aren't the same as mine, to put it lightly.

(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  I know that system better than you might think.
Sometimes you just promise you stay quiet sometimes you sign actual contracts.
From my experience, once you are in such circles (exactly as how you just described), there is not a lot left of own thougts and critical thinking. Accept or face the consequences... Sorry for you, man.
I know what you think, but this is not the case. We spent a lot of time in such groups with crazy or greedy gurus until we became wiser and left. Now we can smell 'em over the hill.
A good guru can teach you something, a bad guru will teach you A LOT Wink
What we do for almost last 10 years is freelancing in a loose network, sometimes getting together for cooperation or recommending suitable therapies to people we know. We don't sign anything, we help out each other and exchange services.

(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  Back in my days I did have students. And I actually made them ask about things and if they didn't I pointed out that they should ask about things. No matter how weird or unlogical those things might seem. And I would always provide answers (of course answers inside the ideology of esotheric). In this was about everything, how energies work as much as all the usual concepts that seem less difficult.
Well, I actually feel silly telling people details. The way it actually is, we are sometimes asked to help one particularly trained individual. That person is really something. She proved herself very able over the years and practically infallible. She does most of the work, but needs us to provide the know-how (she's too busy for scholarly habits) and extra personnel.
I know her quite well and I'd bet you haven't seen anyone like that, none of the cliches apply. She works as if there would be a powerful, omniscient being behind her and she's extremely busy carrying out its work. Not particularly happy to, but hard-working enough.

(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  I was expecting that.
You are at a point - right here and now, where you decide what way to go. Go the way into questioning your beliefs for real and be honest with yourself or keep going the road you did for some time now and never be sure if the things you believe in are true.
Not an easy desicion, take your time.
As I said, I told you very little. I've read your introductory thread and there is nothing in your experience as convincing as what I was through. My beliefs are free for questioning, but my perception isn't. As long as I am a healthy, sane individual by medical and legal standards, I have no reason to doubt my perception, in the cases in which it provides long, clear and repeated observations.

Sometime, somewhere we must draw the line to doubting, otherwise we will doubt everything and accomplish nothing. At some point we must stop bitching for others to bring evidence under our nose accept some responsibility to find evidence. And if we're unable to prove it to whole world at once, so what? Screw the others, they can wait until it's done. Or they can accept some responsibility too or just come up with some helpful constructive criticism. So that's what I do. I believe in my senses, as long as they provide long, clear and repeated observations. And I reserve the right to suspend belief or disbelief until things clear out.

(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  I ask this so maybe you think about it. I get nothing out of asking but you might actually.
I'm disappointed if you think I haven't. I thought a lot, until I saw in practice several times that what I perceive is objective.

(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  No I don't. I say that in order to aggree to something like that, at least one of the parties has to believe in it already. And that is the seed, the rest comes in the session.
So regression therapy shouldn't work on unbelievers. What if it does?

(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  Incorrect. I listed stuff that people have never been thinking of could be traumas. They just grow up in a certain kind of society where some things are normal for everyone and because you where out of this "normal scheme" you are traumatized. Reasons for being in a therapy are often home made, not everyone in therapy had a life shattering experience. That was my point. You make it, you believe in it, you search for a reason to solve it.
In this case you have your allergy that you can't explain, you don't find a medical reason, you think about the topic some more, you hear about past life regression (there is your seed), you try it (wonder why it worked).
If something was a trauma, the regression therapy should show it and it does. Even if the person doesn't remember it. And for this reason it is used by real psychiatrists. Can we agree on that, or should I commit fallacy of appeal to authority like Sigmund Freud?
Another point, during regression a trauma from this life is as real to the body and mind as trauma accompanied by a vision from a past life. I've heard enough sobbing adults behind the door to be sure about that.
Looks like your argument is that some events aren't culturally considered traumas and therefore they don't show in regression, so the brain is forced to make up a story seemingly from a past life.
Well, isn't the subconsciousness supposed to be the thing beyond all cultural inhibitions and lies we tell ourselves? So far it seems you think of it as a all-explaining random generator of nonsense.

(01-01-2012 12:37 PM)Leela Wrote:  A final word:
It is your desicion what you believe in but in order to stay open minded you need to keep questioning, otherwise you will walk on one spot until you die.
And as far as your posts go, right now you are not open to questioning things, which should be an alarming signal for you. A leap of faith can never be the prove.
Oh, I can question things. Just bring me a Christian or a free market capitalist and some salt, pepper and ketchup.
I work with what I have available. Most of it is based on my perception. And I can't question my perception without looking right into my trigger-happy nerve system. At some point in my life I will make sure to look into that, but right now I'm not in a situation to do so. I have to get a life first, that is, get out of the middle of nowhere, get an academic degree, scrape a living together and make some acquaitances.

(01-01-2012 10:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  This just another form of mysticism with no evidence of existence.

Hitchens would be rolling over in his grave to have a quote from him in your signature.
Ah, the purity of science glistens so much it hurts my eyes.
Well, of course. Providing evidence is very much a work in progress and I have the other thread for it.

(30-12-2011 10:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  It's hard to take a detailed look at something that's not there.
It is, but apparently I've done it a few times. And many more times I've touched it, I'm a lot better in tactile sensitivity than visual.
Hell, don't you see how conceited it is? Telling what is or isn't there. There are no rocks in the sky. All that could be discovered was already discovered. Shoo shoo away, you impossible apparition.

(30-12-2011 10:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  "..so few people like me.." Really, this is a pretty good sign of delusion.
The sense in which I wrote it, was that being a rare occurence may mean it is a rare occurence worthy of research, not that it's real. But of course, you interpret things in the worst way possible.

(30-12-2011 10:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  Really? You've had MRI studies done on your brain to confirm this?
No, but I definitely intend to. Why? Because I am something which you don't seem to be, I mean curious. The subtle worlds haunt my nerve endings since before I learned to read and I use every opportunity to find out more about what's going on, directly or indirectly, personally or by proxy. You think your hardly informed judgement or anyone else's can turn me away from pursuing this most interesting unknown phenomenon?

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02-01-2012, 10:42 AM
RE: Past Life Regressions.
Luminon:
# Everything you say seems that you just do not want to question stuff. Which leaves the question why you even bother to write such long posts on a thread like this trying (and failing) to explain stuff.
# You give annoyed answers once you get critical questions, for me this is a sign that you don't want to be questioned in your beliefs.
# Starting your life and studying is not a good excuse for the absence of critisism.

cu
Leela

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02-01-2012, 11:07 AM (This post was last modified: 02-01-2012 11:23 AM by Luminon.)
RE: Past Life Regressions.
(02-01-2012 10:42 AM)Leela Wrote:  Luminon:
# Everything you say seems that you just do not want to question stuff. Which leaves the question why you even bother to write such long posts on a thread like this trying (and failing) to explain stuff.
# You give annoyed answers once you get critical questions, for me this is a sign that you don't want to be questioned in your beliefs.
# Starting your life and studying is not a good excuse for the absence of critisism.

cu
Leela
Well, that's because I already did the questioning, as much as one in my situation can. Which is better than anyone else can, with exception of neurologists with fMRI machine.
You might however take my description literally as I say it and then point out some similar scientific research, if you know about any, confirmative or not. But you won't do that, because your skepticism makes you take what I say with a grain of salt and explain away the downplayed version with trivial causes like confirmation bias or wishful thinking.
At the very least you should consider that what I say might have a neurologic basis, a case of permanently altered perception. If you can trust someone with synaesthesia, you should be able to trust me.
However, this is not synaesthesia and doesn't seem like anything studied before, though I'd welcome it to be.
What conclusions did I come to by observing through my perception is another question. If it happens to coincide with some occult traditions, it should at least make you wonder where did the occult traditions come from.

That is how I'd imagine a reasonable approach. Imagine you're a computer company's troubleshooting help line and I'm a caller. If it's not in software (and it isn't), it must be in hardware. Please don't presume I haven't checked. It's like telling me to RTFM of skepticism, when I have already RTFM of skepticism.

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02-01-2012, 12:40 PM
RE: Past Life Regressions.
To get back on topic here a few studies, linking that stuff though you might have found these things yourself already.

wikipedia Wrote:Reincarnation research is a branch of parapsychology. Psychiatrist Ian Stevenson, from the University of Virginia, investigated many reports of young children who claimed to remember a past life. He conducted more than 2,500 case studies over a period of 40 years and published twelve books, including Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation and Where Reincarnation and Biology Intersect. Stevenson retired in 2002, and psychiatrist Jim B. Tucker took over his work and wrote Life Before Life. No line of research has conclusively demonstrated the existence of reincarnation. Skeptics and the scientific community in general consider reincarnation research to be pseudoscientific.
from reincarnation on wikipedia

wikipedia Wrote:Experiments with subjects undergoing past life regression indicate that a belief in reincarnation and suggestions by the hypnotist are the two most important factors regarding the contents of memories reported.
from wikipedia about past life regression

'university of virginia Wrote:"You're not my mommy/daddy."
"I have another mommy/daddy."
"When I was big, I ...(used to have blue eyes/had a car, etc.)."
"That happened before I was in mommy's tummy."
"I have a wife/husband/children."
"I used to...(drive a truck/live in another town, etc.)"
"I died ... (in a car accident/after I fell, etc.)"
"Remember when I ...(lived in that other house/was your daddy, etc.)"
Explained easily by the fact that they dream and play and hear and see a lot of things.
children claiming to have had a past life


I found a bit more but the sources where not trustworthy as they lacked scientific backround / professionals / objectivity / etc.

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02-01-2012, 04:23 PM
RE: Past Life Regressions.
(02-01-2012 12:40 PM)Leela Wrote:  I found a bit more but the sources where not trustworthy as they lacked scientific backround / professionals / objectivity / etc.
Thank you. You did a good job of finding the sources. But where's the catch? There doesn't seem to be any fundamental problem with reincarnation. And yet you write:

(02-01-2012 12:40 PM)Leela Wrote:  Explained easily by the fact that they dream and play and hear and see a lot of things.
No, this is not an explanation. At most, it's a statement that it's diffcult to determine if the information is original, because a child is not in a controlled lab environment with monitored intake of information.
It seems to me that again you're using this argument of a mystery box on top of our necks randomly generating all the nonsense there ever was.

But as the website you linked says, it is possible to draw parallels between testimonies of some children and real people who lived before. It is also possible to draw parallels between certain marks on skin of such children and places where the deceased people suffered their mortal injury. It is also possible to divide the children according to cultures where reincarnation is commonly culturally believed and taught, and cultures where this isn't so. It is possible to compare the numbers. For example, the work of Ian Stevenson is along these lines.

This is why I am rather disappointed by your telling that "children just make it all up." As a child I made up lots of things, but only when playing. I didn't lie for no reason and didn't have an invisible friend. I never heard about any children around who were doing so. I suspect that there is an extreme bias against children and we consider it our right to dismiss or misinterpret what they say as we choose. However, a daughter of my parents' friend once said to her mother: "I was your mommy and now you are my mommy." The grandmother was of course deceased at the time.

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02-01-2012, 05:51 PM
RE: Past Life Regressions.
Luminon
I don't know why you imply I am giving arguments of ignorance here when I don't.
Children that age don't always know where the border between everything is. Between dream, play, tv, what they heard, and what they actually experienced. I did not say they are lying, they simply don't know the difference yet. (I studied that, it used to be my profession)
Example, I worked at a creche with kids between 2 and 4. We played that we are going to the zoo, we reinacted the animals we "saw". The kids where aware that we were playing. In the afternoon one of the kids was picked up and the mother asked what the kid (nearly 3 by the time) did during the day. And it was all exited and explained that we were actually at the zoo. It wasn't lying, it just couldn't make out the difference of play and reality anymore after a few hours had passed.
This happens a lot, most parents will be nodding and smiling to the kid while knowing that this must have been a game. Not all though.

You see, I can not simply believe something where the only proves are personal experiences.
There have been tests (as I linked the wikipedia that actually had ok sources) which could not confirm that reincarnation is real.

I don't say there is no past life, just right now I find it very unlikely for the lack of scientific research. Scientific research might actually prove it, the process of proving a theory in science is really great and I could totally take reincarnation for true if there was some actual research with tests, theories, formulas, a paper about it approved by the board.

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02-01-2012, 06:59 PM
RE: Past Life Regressions.
(02-01-2012 09:48 AM)Luminon Wrote:  
(01-01-2012 10:17 AM)Chas Wrote:  This just another form of mysticism with no evidence of existence.

Hitchens would be rolling over in his grave to have a quote from him in your signature.
Ah, the purity of science glistens so much it hurts my eyes.
Well, of course. Providing evidence is very much a work in progress and I have the other thread for it.

You can't expect anyone to take your assertions seriously without some evidence.
You seem to think that your personal perception constitutes evidence. It does not.

Quote:
(30-12-2011 10:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  It's hard to take a detailed look at something that's not there.
It is, but apparently I've done it a few times. And many more times I've touched it, I'm a lot better in tactile sensitivity than visual.
Hell, don't you see how conceited it is? Telling what is or isn't there. There are no rocks in the sky. All that could be discovered was already discovered. Shoo shoo away, you impossible apparition.

You say you have, but provide no evidence. Your personal experience is not evidence.

Quote:
(30-12-2011 10:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  "..so few people like me.." Really, this is a pretty good sign of delusion.
The sense in which I wrote it, was that being a rare occurence may mean it is a rare occurence worthy of research, not that it's real. But of course, you interpret things in the worst way possible.

Yes, your experience is certainly a worthy reason for you to pursue investigation.
But until you investigation produces evidence, don't expect anyone else to be too excited.

Quote:
(30-12-2011 10:36 AM)Chas Wrote:  Really? You've had MRI studies done on your brain to confirm this?
No, but I definitely intend to. Why? Because I am something which you don't seem to be, I mean curious. The subtle worlds haunt my nerve endings since before I learned to read and I use every opportunity to find out more about what's going on, directly or indirectly, personally or by proxy. You think your hardly informed judgement or anyone else's can turn me away from pursuing this most interesting unknown phenomenon?
I would think less of you if you didn't pursue it. But until you provide evidence of the existence of 'subtle worlds', don't expect any scientist who doesn't share your experiences to take you seriously.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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