Pastor's son commits suicide
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07-04-2013, 03:55 PM
RE: Pastor's son commits suicide
(07-04-2013 09:46 AM)crazybaby45 Wrote:  So the kid has a great day with his family and goes home and shoots himself right.? No way theres a cover up.He was probably shot by a gay lover or something? The anti gay therapy his parents made him undertake made him mentally ill? Mk Ultra mind control something? Rick Warren hangs with some heavy hitters in the world of evil and I don't believe that kid grew up in the home that's being portrayed. No way.more will surface.

Do we know he was gay?
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07-04-2013, 04:04 PM
RE: Pastor's son commits suicide
(07-04-2013 03:55 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(07-04-2013 09:46 AM)crazybaby45 Wrote:  So the kid has a great day with his family and goes home and shoots himself right.? No way theres a cover up.He was probably shot by a gay lover or something? The anti gay therapy his parents made him undertake made him mentally ill? Mk Ultra mind control something? Rick Warren hangs with some heavy hitters in the world of evil and I don't believe that kid grew up in the home that's being portrayed. No way.more will surface.

Do we know he was gay?

nope pure speculation

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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08-04-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: Pastor's son commits suicide
I'm not an advocate of Pastor Warren's theology, but the speculations were cruel and unnecessary--and you have to realize that media people will take some of what you wrote and this is how rumors and slander begin. "The Enquirer" will say "a website reported that..."

Quote:Just a little nitpicking ...
While this is true, in the present, I disagree about Jebus. He was a Jewish apocalyptic. That's what he was talking about, if indeed those words were not just "placed in his mouth" (as a literary device). There is no way to know.

The Hebrews did not believe in eternal life, or eternal suffering, or a judgemnet day. So all that shit got cooked up later, and slapped onto the cult as later developments. Paul thought those who believed had ALREADY been granted eternal life, and those that didn't, just ceased to exist.

This is also patently untrue. For ancient source references, we can begin with the Hebrew scriptures:

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. - Daniel 12

Job 19:


know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.


Isaiah 66:

“For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All [m]mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have [n]transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all [o]mankind.”
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08-04-2013, 10:04 AM
RE: Pastor's son commits suicide
(08-04-2013 08:38 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'm not an advocate of Pastor Warren's theology, but the speculations were cruel and unnecessary--and you have to realize that media people will take some of what you wrote and this is how rumors and slander begin. "The Enquirer" will say "a website reported that..."

The Enquirer doesn't have to go any further than the article comments for speculation. The trolls are out in full force on this one.

(08-04-2013 08:38 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Isaiah 66:

“For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All [m]mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have [n]transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all [o]mankind.”

What are the agreed-upon dates for these verses? I'm interested to know if Jesus would have been familiar with them.

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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08-04-2013, 12:58 PM
RE: Pastor's son commits suicide
Isaiah 66?

Conservative dating - 700s BCE, liberal dating 400s BCE.

The problem is BB makes all-encompassing claims that are 1) pulled out of his own mind only 2) knocked down easily unless the Bible is as UNIVOCAL as Christians claim it is.

You see, it would be much smarter for BB to make these statements and similar ones and say "the Bible mostly" or "much of the Bible" but when he says, "no Jewish people did" or "the Bible doesn't" he strengthens my apologetics that the Bible and culture were consistent and existed as when conservatively dated.

Thank you.
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08-04-2013, 02:02 PM
RE: Pastor's son commits suicide
(08-04-2013 12:58 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Isaiah 66?

Conservative dating - 700s BCE, liberal dating 400s BCE.

The problem is BB makes all-encompassing claims that are 1) pulled out of his own mind only 2) knocked down easily unless the Bible is as UNIVOCAL as Christians claim it is.

You see, it would be much smarter for BB to make these statements and similar ones and say "the Bible mostly" or "much of the Bible" but when he says, "no Jewish people did" or "the Bible doesn't" he strengthens my apologetics that the Bible and culture were consistent and existed as when conservatively dated.

Thank you.

A direct answer to a question?! Shocking Interesting! Mark, if you read this, what evidence is your argument against Hebrews and judgement based on?

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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08-04-2013, 02:36 PM
RE: Pastor's son commits suicide
(08-04-2013 08:38 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'm not an advocate of Pastor Warren's theology, but the speculations were cruel and unnecessary--and you have to realize that media people will take some of what you wrote and this is how rumors and slander begin. "The Enquirer" will say "a website reported that..."

Quote:Just a little nitpicking ...
While this is true, in the present, I disagree about Jebus. He was a Jewish apocalyptic. That's what he was talking about, if indeed those words were not just "placed in his mouth" (as a literary device). There is no way to know.

The Hebrews did not believe in eternal life, or eternal suffering, or a judgemnet day. So all that shit got cooked up later, and slapped onto the cult as later developments. Paul thought those who believed had ALREADY been granted eternal life, and those that didn't, just ceased to exist.

This is also patently untrue. For ancient source references, we can begin with the Hebrew scriptures:

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. - Daniel 12

Job 19:


know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.


Isaiah 66:

“For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All [m]mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have [n]transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all [o]mankind.”

Actually from what I've heard and read the Jewish people believe in heaven and hell as abstract concepts.

The idea of being at a banquet filled with food and unable to bend your elbows.

The idea of Olam Ha Ba is far more logical to the Jewish people on a whole. It's not about heaven..but more about the holy being raised from their graves and living HERE on earth -- specifically Jerusalem (Gan Eden). This was linked to messiah -- but the Jews are careful to say it wasn't to be a miracle...just something that was supposed to happen. Like an end to suffering disease and war (because the "real" messiah was supposed to be military leader).

Early rabbi's often spoke of Gehenna which is probably the closest to hell...but you could only go there for a year...even before entering you could repent and be accepted...back into the Garden of Eden. (Gan Eden) (see above).

The whole Old Testament is not like the Jewish bible at all. Only the first 5 books make up Torah. The Talmud (which is a series of Rabbinical writings) is often referred as the second Torah -- but even those aren't necessarily found in the bible. Some of the ideas are lifted from it -- but they're presented with a spin.

No Rabbi would tell someone interested in Judaism to read the Old Testament because the two aren't mutually exclusive, compatible or comparable.


Wind's in the east, a mist coming in
Like something is brewing and about to begin
Can't put my finger on what lies in store
but I feel what's to happen has happened before...


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08-04-2013, 05:52 PM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2013 05:59 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Pastor's son commits suicide
(08-04-2013 02:02 PM)guitar_nut Wrote:  
(08-04-2013 12:58 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Isaiah 66?

Conservative dating - 700s BCE, liberal dating 400s BCE.

The problem is BB makes all-encompassing claims that are 1) pulled out of his own mind only 2) knocked down easily unless the Bible is as UNIVOCAL as Christians claim it is.

You see, it would be much smarter for BB to make these statements and similar ones and say "the Bible mostly" or "much of the Bible" but when he says, "no Jewish people did" or "the Bible doesn't" he strengthens my apologetics that the Bible and culture were consistent and existed as when conservatively dated.

Thank you.

A direct answer to a question?! Shocking Interesting! Mark, if you read this, what evidence is your argument against Hebrews and judgement based on?

Hi, I think you might be getting me and Bucky mixed up. Doesn't matter. Bucky knows a lot more about the ancient Jews than I do. My understanding is that the concept of heaven, as we understand it, was only first talked about by some Jews (not all) in the second century BC...

Heaven and Hell
One of the key concepts of Christianity is that God will reward the righteous with heaven and punish heathens with hell. Some Christians may be surprised to hear that heaven and hell are hardly alluded to in the Old Testament. When the word “heaven” is used, it’s only a place in the sky and the great space beyond, not a paradise where compliant people go when they perish; and hell doesn’t even rate a mention. If Yahweh had planned to recompense or punish people after they pass on, he would surely have said so in some of the several thousands of conversations he had with the ancient Jews.

The Old Testament does teach that there’s life after death, specifically that every single soul goes to a graveyard called Sheol. (http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articl...63-sheol). The wicked are there (Ps. 9:17, 31:17, 49:14, Isa. 5:14), and so are the righteous (Gen. 37:35; Job 14:13; Ps. 6:5, 16:10, 88:3; Isa. 38:10). It’s not somewhere a soul shuffles off to if it has behaved badly.

Sheol is sometimes incorrectly translated as “hell” in the Old Testament. Yet Sheol is a proper noun, so is a name or title. It shouldn’t have been translated but simply transliterated, as is done with other names. The literal meaning is simply “subterranean retreat.” Anything more is conjecture and speculation.

The ancient Jews didn’t invent the idea of an afterlife. That notion had been around for thousands of years before Jews first wrote scripture, most notably in Egypt. The idea of heaven as a place where the righteous go after death to live forever with God has always been a key concept in Mithraism, practiced in nearby Persia since at least 2000 BCE. A Jewish version of heaven was only first hinted at perhaps a couple of hundred years before Jesus. What inspired Jewish prophets to (probably) borrow the Mithraic concept?

Many young Jewish men were dying in the Maccabean revolt. Priests found this easier to justify if there was some reward for losing one’s life. The author of the book of Daniel (the last book of the Old Testament to be written,) writing in the second century BCE, wrote the words he hoped would inspire his people to oppose the pagans. Martyrs, he promised, would be rewarded for their faith in a remarkable way:
“And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever” (Dan. 12:2–3, KJV). This verse didn’t specifically mention the existence of heaven, but was probably responsible for the conjecture.

For the author of Daniel, the goal of life was to live forever with angels. Heaven was withheld from those who didn’t follow the prophet’s call, who were not in his judgment “wise,” and who failed to “lead many to righteousness.” This was a very novel concept for Jews; nothing like this had ever been taught before. But the idea had been born, and it caught on fast. Within a hundred years after Daniel was written, many Jews believed in heaven. (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/20...aven.html)

Now...if we consider PJ's other 2 quotes (from Isaiah and Job)....if read carefully neither are specifically talking about a heaven or hell.

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08-04-2013, 05:56 PM
RE: Pastor's son commits suicide
(08-04-2013 08:38 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I'm not an advocate of Pastor Warren's theology, but the speculations were cruel and unnecessary--and you have to realize that media people will take some of what you wrote and this is how rumors and slander begin. "The Enquirer" will say "a website reported that..."

Quote:Just a little nitpicking ...
While this is true, in the present, I disagree about Jebus. He was a Jewish apocalyptic. That's what he was talking about, if indeed those words were not just "placed in his mouth" (as a literary device). There is no way to know.

The Hebrews did not believe in eternal life, or eternal suffering, or a judgemnet day. So all that shit got cooked up later, and slapped onto the cult as later developments. Paul thought those who believed had ALREADY been granted eternal life, and those that didn't, just ceased to exist.

This is also patently untrue. For ancient source references, we can begin with the Hebrew scriptures:

Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise[a] will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever. - Daniel 12

Job 19:


know that my redeemer[c] lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.[d]
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet[e] in[f] my flesh I will see God;
27 I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!
28 “If you say, ‘How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him,[g]’
29 you should fear the sword yourselves;
for wrath will bring punishment by the sword,
and then you will know that there is judgment.


Isaiah 66:

“For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So your offspring and your name will endure.
23 “And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All [m]mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go forth and look
On the corpses of the men
Who have [n]transgressed against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be quenched;
And they will be an abhorrence to all [o]mankind.”

It is a little cruel to give pastor Warren a hard time right now.

BUT....if you're going to put yourself out there, and be a multi-millionaire from writing shit that seriously degrades people's lives, you gotta take a little flak.
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08-04-2013, 06:49 PM
RE: Pastor's son commits suicide
(08-04-2013 05:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Hi, I think you might be getting me and Bucky mixed up. Doesn't matter. Bucky knows a lot more about the ancient Jews than I do. My understanding is that the concept of heaven, as we understand it, was only first talked about by some Jews (not all) in the second century BC...

Now...if we consider PJ's other 2 quotes (from Isaiah and Job)....if read carefully neither are specifically talking about a heaven or hell.

Bucky 1
PJ 0

Thanks for responding! PJ was talking about your quote regarding Hebrews and heaven (I think it was yours) which is why I asked you. The Job quote wasn't a good argument, but Isaiah did allude to a never-ending suffering. For something so important, however, you'd think it would be described beyond a worm that doesn't die. I understand PJ interprets it to mean hell and was curious about the history outside of the bible.

...it would rather be a man... [who] plunges into scientific questions with which he has no real acquaintance, only to obscure them with aimless rhetoric, and distract the attention of his hearers from the real point at issue by eloquent digressions and skilled appeals to religious prejudice.
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