Paternal Rights Regarding Abortion
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30-04-2012, 09:48 PM
Paternal Rights Regarding Abortion
Every day teenagers hook up and have unprotected sex, and at times resulting in a pregnancy.

They both made the exact same mistake, unprotected sex. However, beyond that point the males options are gone, whilst the female has the option of taking the morning after pill, later having an abortion, or having the baby. Then the woman again has the right to put the child up for adoption or to keep it.


So, lets play out a common scenario.
The girl decides she wants to go full term and keep the baby.
Meanwhile the guy would rather the girl have an abortion of put the child up for adoption.

Its not the man's body, so I agree that she should have the choice as to whether to have the kid of not.

However, In such a situation wouldn't it be fair to allow the male to disown the child if the women refused to abort or put up the child for adoption? After all it's her body, but it is his life. Why should she have control of the outcome of this guy's life?
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30-04-2012, 10:33 PM
RE: Paternal Rights Regarding Abortion
(30-04-2012 09:48 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  Every day teenagers hook up and have unprotected sex, and at times resulting in a pregnancy.

They both made the exact same mistake, unprotected sex. However, beyond that point the males options are gone, whilst the female has the option of taking the morning after pill, later having an abortion, or having the baby. Then the woman again has the right to put the child up for adoption or to keep it.


So, lets play out a common scenario.
The girl decides she wants to go full term and keep the baby.
Meanwhile the guy would rather the girl have an abortion of put the child up for adoption.

Its not the man's body, so I agree that she should have the choice as to whether to have the kid of not.

However, In such a situation wouldn't it be fair to allow the male to disown the child if the women refused to abort or put up the child for adoption? After all it's her body, but it is his life. Why should she have control of the outcome of this guy's life?
Happens all the time...ever heard of a deadbeat dad?

It took two to make that baby...both should have known the possibility of a child existed.

My older daughter is 35, her father never paid one cent of support in any way, shape, or form. Nor did he ever pay any attention. He walked when I was three months pregnant and never looked back. Course there are at least two other kids younger than her that he also walked away from. And I have heard rumors recently that there is one older.

If a guy doesn't want to make a baby...there are precautions he can take and should take.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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30-04-2012, 10:55 PM
RE: Paternal Rights Regarding Abortion
(30-04-2012 10:33 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(30-04-2012 09:48 PM)mysticjbyrd Wrote:  Every day teenagers hook up and have unprotected sex, and at times resulting in a pregnancy.

They both made the exact same mistake, unprotected sex. However, beyond that point the males options are gone, whilst the female has the option of taking the morning after pill, later having an abortion, or having the baby. Then the woman again has the right to put the child up for adoption or to keep it.


So, lets play out a common scenario.
The girl decides she wants to go full term and keep the baby.
Meanwhile the guy would rather the girl have an abortion of put the child up for adoption.

Its not the man's body, so I agree that she should have the choice as to whether to have the kid of not.

However, In such a situation wouldn't it be fair to allow the male to disown the child if the women refused to abort or put up the child for adoption? After all it's her body, but it is his life. Why should she have control of the outcome of this guy's life?
Happens all the time...ever heard of a deadbeat dad?

It took two to make that baby...both should have known the possibility of a child existed.

My older daughter is 35, her father never paid one cent of support in any way, shape, or form. Nor did he ever pay any attention. He walked when I was three months pregnant and never looked back. Course there are at least two other kids younger than her that he also walked away from. And I have heard rumors recently that there is one older.

If a guy doesn't want to make a baby...there are precautions he can take and should take.
Yes they both made a mistake, unprotected sex. But...

The girl was given 3 chances to fix said mistake. Day after pill, abortion, and adoption.
The boy was given 0 chances to fix said mistake. He had no decision whatsoever. The future of his entire life rides on the decision of the mother.

Being a 'deadbeat dad' criminal is not much of a choice.


It seems to me that the boy should get some options too. If the women demands to keep the child, against the wishes of the father, then I think the man should have the option to disown the child. He would no longer be financially responsible, and at the same time forfeited all his parental rights as well.

If she is willing to have the kid despite his disapproval, then she shouldn't be able to force him into parenthood.
Idk, but that seems more than fair to me.
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01-05-2012, 04:56 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2012 05:04 AM by Vipa.)
RE: Paternal Rights Regarding Abortion
I've had this conversation many times now with friends.. (even with the same arguments you use ^^)
baseline so far: women mostly disagree, men mostly agree

And the only argument i've heard so far is: the man could've thought about it before he had unprotected sex

but as you said, it isn't just the man who had unprotected sex... as far as I know, it takes at least two for unprotected sex
Furthermore even if you had protected sex she's still in control. If she's crazy enough, sperm can survive for some hours (except the condom you used was a sperm-killing one). This of course probably isn't exactly the thing a teenager would do, but still the man would have to pay...
I deem running away a non-option too btw.
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01-05-2012, 06:31 AM
RE: Paternal Rights Regarding Abortion
Because the embryo/foetus is part of the woman's body, letting a man decide what happens to it is like letting a man decide what happens to a woman's body. An abortion is invasive, it's a terrible experience, and the man isn't the one going through it. Therefore, he's not the one who gets to decide if it should happen.

Is it unfair? Hell yes. These things are never entirely fair. Women have spent centuries not having a say in what happens to their own bodies, being forced into marriages, being raped by their husbands and forced to be breeding machines. Forgive me if I don't feel guilty that society is erring on the side of women for a change.

No, it's not entirely fair. Ideally, both parties should have equal right to decide whether or not they want to be parents. But it doesn't always work that way.

"But the point is, find somebody to love. Everything else is overrated." - HouseofCantor
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01-05-2012, 07:27 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2012 07:38 AM by Vipa.)
RE: Paternal Rights Regarding Abortion
(01-05-2012 06:31 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  Because the embryo/foetus is part of the woman's body
That's simply not true. The human body (fetus) even needs virus-dna to trick the human body (woman) into not attacking the fetus, because it is not really part of the woman's body

So while I understand your not feeling guilty part (to a degree I think alike), it's not a solution to destroy another humans life with this one sided decision
and even if you're against abortion, adoption is still in the game for that matter.

and two wrongs don't make a right - it certainly was and in some ways still is a man-dominated culture, but that is not the fault of the current generation which, for the most part, already understands that women and men are equal. What women have spent centuries with is not our fault unless you want to say there is something like sin in men which they have to atone for. We certainly have to learn from the past, but we are not the actors of the past - therefore we should not pay for things we didn't commit.

Of course i'm not saying the woman who wants the baby shall starve to death just because the father doesn't want to pay, but there have to be other ways to guarantee their well being. The baby is after all going to be a part of our collective future, why not paying its well being collectively.
But I guess this solution sounds like a socialist nightmare to some here...
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01-05-2012, 08:26 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2012 08:34 AM by Antirepublican.)
RE: Paternal Rights Regarding Abortion
(01-05-2012 06:31 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  Because the embryo/foetus is part of the woman's body, letting a man decide what happens to it is like letting a man decide what happens to a woman's body. An abortion is invasive, it's a terrible experience, and the man isn't the one going through it. Therefore, he's not the one who gets to decide if it should happen.

Is it unfair? Hell yes. These things are never entirely fair. Women have spent centuries not having a say in what happens to their own bodies, being forced into marriages, being raped by their husbands and forced to be breeding machines. Forgive me if I don't feel guilty that society is erring on the side of women for a change.

No, it's not entirely fair. Ideally, both parties should have equal right to decide whether or not they want to be parents. But it doesn't always work that way.
No one said he should get to decide what happens to her body. Rather, what he was saying is that he should have the right to decide what happens to his body. A child is at least an 18 year commitment, and usually a lifetime commitment. The whole feminist argument is based on the fact that the man shouldn't be able to decide what happens to her body. Yet, she clearly has power over what happens to his body in the current system?!?!? She shouldn't have the power to decide what happens to his body, no more than he has to decide what she does with hers.

If she is willing to ignore his opinion and his feelings on the subject, then he should have every right to walk away from the whole thing.

Yes a lot of things in this world is unfair, but that doesn't mean we should settle for the status quo. In this case I think we can clearly make things more fair.
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01-05-2012, 08:30 AM
RE: Paternal Rights Regarding Abortion
But let's look at things practically. If men and women have equal say, and they disagree, you reach a standstill. For rather unfair biological reasons, a woman has a higher stake in this. Would it be more fair to say the man has a bigger say? Should he be allowed to force a woman to give up her child or to abort it when she doesn't want to?
If the reverse were true, and he wanted to force her to carry the child and give birth to it, wouldn't you also feel that he is overstepping his bounds? After all, this is still her body. It's not an independent life, not while it's a small clump of cells. It's not much more than an ovary at that point, except that it has been fertilised.
This is why abortion arguments are difficult to begin with. We can't really say it's an independent life. Not any more than an ovary or a sperm is an independent life.

So it's not a perfectly fair solution, but it's the best solution, at least until we can implant men with embryos and have them carry the foetus until it comes to term.

Now, after the birth: I think that's a different issue. I personally believe that all children should be raised with the same opportunities and luxuries, regardless of whether their parents can afford them. But I am in the minority, especially among the members of this forum. If I started saying that you don't need to pay child support, but the state needs to pay it, I'll get sent to the naughty chair again.

"But the point is, find somebody to love. Everything else is overrated." - HouseofCantor
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01-05-2012, 08:43 AM
RE: Paternal Rights Regarding Abortion
(01-05-2012 07:27 AM)Vipa Wrote:  Of course i'm not saying the woman who wants the baby shall starve to death just because the father doesn't want to pay, but there have to be other ways to guarantee their well being. The baby is after all going to be a part of our collective future, why not paying its well being collectively.
But I guess this solution sounds like a socialist nightmare to some here...
The system already pays in the case of a deadbeat dad.
Its not much, but they can survive, and they keep charging the deadbeat dad. They are also becoming far more strict about these guys not paying their child support as well.

Such a measure might seriously reduce the number of teen parents walking around, thus potentially reduce the number of women and kids on this system.
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01-05-2012, 08:44 AM
RE: Paternal Rights Regarding Abortion
If I got someone pregnant by mistake then I would probably attempt to fake my own death and flee. Tongue

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