Patriotism and Loyalty
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22-07-2012, 05:34 PM
Patriotism and Loyalty
Alright, I've been wondering about this for a while. Why do we have patriotism? What is its purpose?

To me, there really isn't much of a rational basis for patriotism. I understand being loyal to your country, but taking it to the point where you believe that your country is inherently better than another, just because you were born there, makes no logical sense to me. If I was born in France or Spain or Argentina or Nepal, I quite possibly would be patriotic and wave my flag just as vigorously as US patriots do (I USA-born and still live here.)

And so, just like religion, if everyone is waving their flag, and creating boundaries, what's the point? If everyone has their own religious beliefs, obviously some of them must be wrong, which makes the whole thing pointless. If everyone thinks their culture or country is better than another, what good can that do? Instead, if everyone accepted another and united, wouldn't this be better for human society? Please note that I'm not trying to say that all cultures should be eliminated in favor of a global society.


I think that patriotism has a basis in natural selection though. People in your culture (or tribe), especially when dealing with small tribes, should be more closely related to you. Similarly to altruism, if you're supporting your tribe (for example, by killing members of other tribes), then your genes (well, you might die, but you protect your relatives and take off opposing genes) should have a higher representation ratio in the gene pool. I think this is mirrored in the animal kingdom. However, considering that humans have transformed society into an increasingly padded place where the jaws of natural selection aren't as powerful, what would the purpose of this be?

Gooodddd, blessss, 'mericaaaaaa! And France! And Argentina! And China! And... !

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22-07-2012, 06:14 PM
RE: Patriotism and Loyalty
USA - 3rd by population, 70th by population density. Any questions? Angel

~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...population

~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...on_density

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22-07-2012, 06:20 PM
RE: Patriotism and Loyalty
(22-07-2012 06:14 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  USA - 3rd by population, 70th by population density. Any questions? Angel

~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...population

~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...on_density
I saw a map that said if population was distributed by land mass, the USA wouldn't change.

Let me see if I can find it...
Found it.
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22-07-2012, 06:59 PM
RE: Patriotism and Loyalty
(22-07-2012 06:14 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  USA - 3rd by population, 70th by population density. Any questions? Angel

~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...population

~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...on_density
The USA is 179th according to the population density link. Am I missing something?

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned" - Anonymous
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23-07-2012, 02:04 AM
RE: Patriotism and Loyalty
(22-07-2012 06:59 PM)nsguy1350 Wrote:  
(22-07-2012 06:14 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  USA - 3rd by population, 70th by population density. Any questions? Angel

~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...population

~http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou...on_density
The USA is 179th according to the population density link. Am I missing something?
Scotch. Big Grin

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23-07-2012, 02:11 AM
RE: Patriotism and Loyalty




God save the queen........ and her facist regime.

Kinda sums up my views on patriotism Confused

For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
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23-07-2012, 03:18 AM
RE: Patriotism and Loyalty
Well it all boils down to tribalism. When we were savages roaming around naked and stabbing each other with spears, we demonised other clans and set our own clans up as the best. In some cases, the other clans weren't even humans. We would live and fight for our clans.

Today, patriotism seems to be something that children are brainwashed into as part of an unofficial curriculum in school. They are taught to pledge allegiance, to draw the flag and write essays about what 'freedom' means. I don't this is exclusively an American thing but it seems to be a lot stronger there than it is here. So yeah in a way it's a lot like religion.

But unlike religion, I was never brainwashed into patriotism so I don't know what it feels like.

"But the point is, find somebody to love. Everything else is overrated." - HouseofCantor
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23-07-2012, 06:13 AM
RE: Patriotism and Loyalty
Only when the All Blacks are playing. Any other time, fuck this country.

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23-07-2012, 07:53 AM
RE: Patriotism and Loyalty
I see.... so I am not the only one who is thinking these thoughts.

What about culture? The same thing should apply too, right? Just because you are born into a specific culture doesn't make it any more important than the next.

"But you're supposed to be proud of where you came from! After all, the people and country you were born in raised you and provided for you!"

If I was Hitler's child and he raised me and provided for me, or I was born to a family of religious zealots, then the same should apply. I don't think that supporting your origins in those kinds of situations is a good thing. It just creates borders, unnecessary ones at that.

Personally, I am from mixed origins, my father being African American and my mother being a native Japanese woman. I don't feel much devotion to either culture (not that "African American" is a distinct culture, but I think you get what I mean.) Sometimes people ask me why I don't bother learning Japanese, and frankly I don't really care for it. I'm not very concerned about my family history, "roots", or anything similar either. I guess that every time I walk outside and see a bird in flight, so graceful in nature, and call it my "cousin", it proves to be a much more interesting history and family tree than "African American" or "Japanese" (considering that one guy who asked me this is a creationist, I understand that he can't relate. However, I think I am making progress towards breaking through his shell; he admitted to me that for one day, I "broke his faith" by pointing out numerous logical fallacies. At one point, he told me "I see these logical fallacies, but I ignore them." Once I contact him again, I will see if i can show him why faith is unreasonable to follow. He is still very faithful.)

There is only one race, the human race.

"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned" - Anonymous
I am glad to live where there is no God, for I am moral, and mortal; I do not wish to worship He who crafts an immoral immortality.
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