Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
Thread Closed 
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-08-2015, 02:34 AM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
Big Grin

Of course! Certainly! Smile
Find all posts by this user
08-08-2015, 02:19 AM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(06-08-2015 08:37 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Um.. except nothing at a quantum level does anything to 'support' the world. It's gravity and stellar formation etc. Hence Horizon's amazing journey out to Pluto.

I'm sorry, but was there a sort of question you'd like me to answer?

You saying "It's quantum" is all well and good... but then how does the chibi deity do anything? Where is the macroscopic interaction? Just tweaking magnets by a fraction doesn't seem... well.. like much/enough...

Or am I completely missing something?

You talk about stellar formation, but our own sun wouldn't shine were it not for quantum mechanics. There simply isn't enough mass for gravity to condense the matter that makes up the sun down to a hot enough density to produce fusion. Here is a video that explains it.





The universe needs a non local dice roller. Someone or something outside it which acts as the cause for these things which appear to be intrinsically random to us.

Nobody accepted intrinsic randomness before quantum mechanics. Before quantum mechanics randomness was always a function of ignorance. If you knew all the variables you could make a prediction. When science revealed that local variables could not explain this randomness that left just two explanations. The cause is non-local(of course this meant God and the scientist couldn't have that). Or randomness really isn't a function of ignorance but rather simply is(which there is no way to prove to be true).

Now I ask you, why should I accept that some things are intrinsically random when this goes against every observation I have ever made. Every effect has a cause, so why shouldn't I believe that quantum effects also have causes(some of which have to be non-local)?

Again this isn't a God of the gaps argument because science has told us no theory of hidden local variables can every explain all the predictions of quantum mechanics. Its either intrinsically random or some causes are non-local.
Find all posts by this user
08-08-2015, 02:54 AM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
Um.... Some quick thoughts... I'm still not sure if I'm following everything in the above posting.

Okay... So, on the one hand your kind of saying that at sub-atomic levels things get 'weird'. Yes?

Then, in the next paragraph, you state "..... Why should I accept that some things are intrinsically random when this goes against every observation I have ever made...."

Which, seems to me, to be a tad of a contradiction. Subatomic things are random... you don't see random etc.

Thence your delving into 'causes'. So, with our current understanding of our reality, we know it had a 'beginning' point...... Everything after that can be said to be a 'Just cause'. No?

There's also the problem that then, your chibi dice roller is still captive/part of the very nature of reality they are poking. Since even quantum effects don't happen over distances faster than the speed of light.

As for 'Something outside randomizing quantum weirdness'. I posit that the quantum weirdness is/could just be an emergent property of.. the quantum stuff.

Hence the 'Why' of the quantum weirdness is why people are smashing really small things together at insanely high speeds to see what 'falls out' of the experiment (Hence, the Higgs Boson.)

* Also not that I do believe they have found/discovered/demonstrated yet anothr sub atomic particle but you'd have to hop up into the general board and ask some one better versed than my self all about that.
Find all posts by this user
08-08-2015, 06:23 PM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(08-08-2015 02:54 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Um.... Some quick thoughts... I'm still not sure if I'm following everything in the above posting.

Okay... So, on the one hand your kind of saying that at sub-atomic levels things get 'weird'. Yes?

Then, in the next paragraph, you state "..... Why should I accept that some things are intrinsically random when this goes against every observation I have ever made...."

Which, seems to me, to be a tad of a contradiction. Subatomic things are random... you don't see random etc.

Thence your delving into 'causes'. So, with our current understanding of our reality, we know it had a 'beginning' point...... Everything after that can be said to be a 'Just cause'. No?

There's also the problem that then, your chibi dice roller is still captive/part of the very nature of reality they are poking. Since even quantum effects don't happen over distances faster than the speed of light.

As for 'Something outside randomizing quantum weirdness'. I posit that the quantum weirdness is/could just be an emergent property of.. the quantum stuff.

Hence the 'Why' of the quantum weirdness is why people are smashing really small things together at insanely high speeds to see what 'falls out' of the experiment (Hence, the Higgs Boson.)

* Also not that I do believe they have found/discovered/demonstrated yet anothr sub atomic particle but you'd have to hop up into the general board and ask some one better versed than my self all about that.

Quantum mechanics loses a lot of its weirdness when you assume the existence of God. Why did the observed photon pass through this slit and not the other? Well if the cause of the effect cannot be local, then that suggest the existence of a non-local cause. If our world requires non local causes, and physics suggest that it does, then one of the roles of God in our world would be to be the dice thrower. Our world doesn't work with out randomness.....we have to have it and God is the supplier of it.

What is ridiculous in my mind is rejecting the possibility of non-local causes and instead just assuming that things are now somehow....intrinsically random. Intrinsic random makes zero sense. How can an atom decide randomly, that it is going to decay?
Find all posts by this user
08-08-2015, 08:33 PM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(08-08-2015 06:23 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Quantum mechanics loses a lot of its weirdness when you assume the existence of God. Why did the observed photon pass through this slit and not the other? Well if the cause of the effect cannot be local, then that suggest the existence of a non-local cause. If our world requires non local causes, and physics suggest that it does, then one of the roles of God in our world would be to be the dice thrower. Our world doesn't work with out randomness.....we have to have it and God is the supplier of it.

Well.. I'm kind of glad your chibi deity helps you out to make sense of things... some how. Wink

But... I must admit, I'm still at a loss of much of understanding about things quantum. I get most of the details I see in youtube clips and such... buuut I'm pretty sure that's just a lot of 'shaving things off so the lay man can get a glimpse of everything that's happening' kind of thing.

As for the photon and the double slit? Yah, I'll head back up into the forum to ask more about that. All I now is that shining a specific type of light at a couple of holes does something strange. There's my level on understanding. Blush

(08-08-2015 06:23 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  What is ridiculous in my mind is rejecting the possibility of non-local causes and instead just assuming that things are now somehow....intrinsically random. Intrinsic random makes zero sense. How can an atom decide randomly, that it is going to decay?

But... there's actually no evidence of 'Non-local causes'. Um... the whole' How can an atom decides to do something' comes down to maybe it just does? Why do chemical bonds work the way they do (Causing some quite specific effects/events) ? Because they do.

Again, that's why there are Boffins doing nothing but poking and prodding and thinking about such things.

So.. basically it seems it's coming down to how we think about the world.

I think about the world and don't see any evidence for chibi deities living in the heart of stars making digging tunnels for atomic particles......

Smile
Find all posts by this user
08-08-2015, 08:40 PM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
This is debate solely between Heywood and Peebo. No other members are to post in this thread.
Find all posts by this user
08-08-2015, 08:54 PM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(08-08-2015 08:33 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  But... there's actually no evidence of 'Non-local causes'. Um... the whole' How can an atom decides to do something' comes down to maybe it just does? Why do chemical bonds work the way they do (Causing some quite specific effects/events) ? Because they do.

In your experience do things happen without causes? In my experience they don't. What reason, other than I need a reason to disbelieve in God, should I ever accept that an effect doesn't have to have a cause? If I find an effect and I can't see the cause, I think I am on very good ground by assuming there is one.

What would prove the existence of God? A miracle....something which happens which has no physical cause? Well when we started to observe the smallest structures of reality we saw these miracles. We saw things happening without causes. For a long time many scientist thought that these things which have no apparent cause, really had a cause that is just how hidden from us. However Bell proved them wrong. Bell proved that no theory of local hidden variables can every explain all the predictions of quantum mechanics.

Randomness is intrinsic to our world or there is a non local cause generating it. I see no reason to abandon causality and accept intrinsic randomness.

Here is a video on Bell's Theorem.



Find all posts by this user
08-08-2015, 09:06 PM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(08-08-2015 08:40 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  This is debate solely between Heywood and Peebo. No other members are to post in this thread.

Post 15 still needs to be deleted.

Chas could start a commentary thread if he is interested in making comments.
Find all posts by this user
08-08-2015, 09:17 PM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
*Offers Heywood more mead... Steers them back towards the fireside and comfy chairs...* Smile
Find all posts by this user
08-08-2015, 09:19 PM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(08-08-2015 09:06 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 08:40 PM)Tartarus Sauce Wrote:  This is debate solely between Heywood and Peebo. No other members are to post in this thread.

Post 15 still needs to be deleted.

Chas could start a commentary thread if he is interested in making comments.

Done.

Interloping posts moved to the appropriate Commentary box

Find all posts by this user
Thread Closed 
Forum Jump: