Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
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08-08-2015, 09:35 PM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(08-08-2015 08:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  In your experience do things happen without causes? In my experience they don't. What reason, other than I need a reason to disbelieve in God, should I ever accept that an effect doesn't have to have a cause? If I find an effect and I can't see the cause, I think I am on very good ground by assuming there is one.

Umm.. but everything I see happen (Macroscopically) the cause can be determined and, please do share an example if you know of one, there is an easily natural explanation for them. I;ve seen nothing that (Again, on a macroscopic level) needs any sort of deity to help push things along.

*Note: Of course, my limited time about does not mean I've seen/read/listened/know everything etc. Tongue

(08-08-2015 08:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  What would prove the existence of God? A miracle....something which happens which has no physical cause? Well when we started to observe the smallest structures of reality we saw these miracles. We saw things happening without causes. For a long time many scientist thought that these things which have no apparent cause, really had a cause that is just how hidden from us. However Bell proved them wrong. Bell proved that no theory of local hidden variables can every explain all the predictions of quantum mechanics.

Well... now, not just a miracle. Really, anything that might/could/should be a diety. So far all that you seem to have posited is a chibi deity digging tunnels inside stars. That's.... not very inspiring on a personal level. No that I don't mind getting a sun tan, but why don't they also, while they're mucking out the photon stables, shave off the nastier things which might interact and cause cancer etc?

(08-08-2015 08:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Randomness is intrinsic to our world or there is a non local cause generating it. I see no reason to abandon causality and accept intrinsic randomness.

Here is a video on Bell's Theorem.




Again, I am certainly in no way educated enough about quantum anything to hazard a guess at how subatomic things work. However... you seem to be saying that your deity exists all the way 'down' (inside? between? Under?) there.

Great... we seem to be back to a chibi deity digging tunnels inside stars.

I mentioned before that even quantum effects (If some one reading along knows better, please post a pointer thread up in the main forums for myself and others to get a better understanding/education on things) do not travel faster than the speed of light.

So, there's no way for a chibi deity in one star to be able to do anything in another star all the way over some where else.

AND.

If said chibi deity is busy tunneling away within the heart of our star... Then there would seem to be no way they could also be mucking about within the quantum stuff that's happening here on our planet.

Nor, for that matter (heh, a possibly funny) could they also be interacting with everything every where on our planet at the same time!

So... you've multiplied your chibi deity first into chibi deities and then into a chibi deity army.....Blink

*Chibi deity army is watching you sleep..........
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08-08-2015, 11:17 PM (This post was last modified: 08-08-2015 11:21 PM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(08-08-2015 09:35 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 08:54 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  In your experience do things happen without causes? In my experience they don't. What reason, other than I need a reason to disbelieve in God, should I ever accept that an effect doesn't have to have a cause? If I find an effect and I can't see the cause, I think I am on very good ground by assuming there is one.

Umm.. but everything I see happen (Macroscopically) the cause can be determined and, please do share an example if you know of one, there is an easily natural explanation for them. I;ve seen nothing that (Again, on a macroscopic level) needs any sort of deity to help push things along.

That is just it. We don't experience effects unless there is some underlying causes. However if you observe reality on the smallest of scales, you see effects that have no apparent cause. Further you have theorem which essentially proves that if quantum mechanics is correct, no system of hidden local causes can ever explain them.

I would like to ask you a question. Which is more likely to be a true statement.

1. All effects have causes even if we can't identify them.

2. Some effects randomly happen without any cause whatsoever. Not even a cause we are ignorant about. They are effects that just happen.

To me statement 1 is much more likely to be the true statement. Stuff doesn't just happen without causes. Since Bells theorem tells us that no system of hidden local variables can ever explain all the predictions of quantum mechanics and since I have no reason to disbelieve Bell's theorem. A non local cause seems to be the only option. FYI, a cause which propagates faster than the speed of light would be non local.

I agree this doesn't suggest a personal god. Really all it suggests is a non local cause. But if God exists and maintains the world, you should expect to see effects which can only have non local causes. That seems to be the case in our reality.

On the quantum level, reality really does look like it would if God exists and maintains it.
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08-08-2015, 11:35 PM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
Hmmm... I would answer that both statement one and two are possible/true.

I also disagree that "On the quantum level, reality really does look like it would if God exists and maintains it."

Simply because:

(A) I do not know nearly enough about all the quantum stuff.

(B) If a deity is maintaining things on a subatomic level, then we're back to a chibi god tunneling inside stars and really doing bugger all within the realm of people. Or are you saying that if the chibi deity stops tunneling etc we all cease to exist?

Which might mean that those seeking the ultimate freezing point are doing something rather bad?

Also, if there isn't a personal (As in it/they singularly interact intimately with every one/thing) Then even bothering with trying to appease something like Cthuhlu is rather silly/pointless...
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08-08-2015, 11:44 PM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(08-08-2015 11:35 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Hmmm... I would answer that both statement one and two are possible/true.

I also disagree that "On the quantum level, reality really does look like it would if God exists and maintains it."

Simply because:

(A) I do not know nearly enough about all the quantum stuff.

(B) If a deity is maintaining things on a subatomic level, then we're back to a chibi god tunneling inside stars and really doing bugger all within the realm of people. Or are you saying that if the chibi deity stops tunneling etc we all cease to exist?

Which might mean that those seeking the ultimate freezing point are doing something rather bad?

When a photon enters your eye, it strikes a particular light sensitive cell. Photons travel as probability waves. Now that probability wave is going to collapse and that photon will hit your retina at a specific point. What "dice roll" if you will determines how that wave function collapses? Bells theorem tells us that no system of local variables can ever explain it or it it can be explained, there will be some other effect that can't be explained.

Also you cannot say that statement 1 and 2 are both true because they contradict each other. If every effect has a cause then every effect is not random therefore on no level is reality intrinsically random. You have to choose one or the other. I don't buy this intrinsic random bullshit because it makes no sense whatsoever. All effects have causes. If there are no local causes then the cause is non local.

Last, I didn't really come here to prove to you that God exists, I came here to show that there are observations and scientific conclusions to support the notion of God's existence.
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08-08-2015, 11:48 PM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
Okay... I am still not seeing your deity within anything quantum. Simple as that.

I am sad that I am not knowledgeable enough to understand the parallels you are making.

As for the photon thing. I am of the understanding (simple) that a photon is/can be both a particle AND a wave. Hence a photon (One of the HUGE amount being spewed out and reflected etc by our fusion furnace or Human created light emitters) semi-randomly falling into my eyeball is not really all that miraculous. Given the sheer amount of the darn things whizzing about al over the place.

I mean, really... you have to be in pretty dark shadow not to randomly accosted by the bloody things!
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08-08-2015, 11:57 PM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(08-08-2015 11:48 PM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  Okay... I am still not seeing your deity within anything quantum. Simple as that.

I am sad that I am not knowledgeable enough to understand the parallels you are making.

As for the photon thing. I am of the understanding (simple) that a photon is/can be both a particle AND a wave. Hence a photon (One of the HUGE amount being spewed out and reflected etc by our fusion furnace or Human created light emitters) semi-randomly falling into my eyeball is not really all that miraculous. Given the sheer amount of the darn things whizzing about al over the place.

I mean, really... you have to be in pretty dark shadow not to randomly accosted by the bloody things!

What is comes down too in an analogy that most people can understand is this. Our observable reality needs something outside itself to inject randomness into it. Our wold needs a dice roller.

The reason you can resolve anything with your eyes is because those photonic waves are collapsing into specific points determined by what? Really it is the roll of the dice and every dice roll requires a shooter. God is that shooter.
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09-08-2015, 12:32 AM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(08-08-2015 11:57 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  What is comes down too in an analogy that most people can understand is this. Our observable reality needs something outside itself to inject randomness into it. Our wold needs a dice roller.

What?

Okay, first.. all you've shown is that a chibi deity is rolling really small dice.

Second, I'm still not seeing how said chibi deity is managing to roll all those dice, all over the place and still not violate traveling faster than the speed of light... unless there's a LOT of chibi deities.

You can't both be in one place AND at another at the same time. I am pretty sure reality does work that way. Quantum stuff or not. Even quantum stuff can';t be in two places at once.

(08-08-2015 11:57 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The reason you can resolve anything with your eyes is because those photonic waves are collapsing into specific points determined by what? Really it is the roll of the dice and every dice roll requires a shooter. God is that shooter.

No... I know enough to know a photon can be BOTH a wave AND a particle (Or it's nature or both... or something like that) and so there are literally an almost uncountable oodles worth of photon particles zipping around the place.

No collapsing wave fronts needed. Tongue

Also, your deity is no more interesting nor Human interactive than sleeping Cthulhu at this point. Assuming it's the deity pushing all the collapsing wave fronts around and not some other, lesser things doing all the work on said deity's behalf.
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09-08-2015, 12:46 AM (This post was last modified: 09-08-2015 12:51 AM by Heywood Jahblome.)
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(09-08-2015 12:32 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(08-08-2015 11:57 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  What is comes down too in an analogy that most people can understand is this. Our observable reality needs something outside itself to inject randomness into it. Our wold needs a dice roller.

What?

Okay, first.. all you've shown is that a chibi deity is rolling really small dice.

If those decisions weren't made, reality would cease to exist as we know it. You would become blind immediately...Actually, I suspect, you'd simply disintegrate. What is happening here is really kinda important to our existence.....at least as we know it.

I admit I am speculating a bit. I don't really know what would happen if the dice roller stopped tossing His dice for us. I can't imagine it being good though.
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09-08-2015, 12:54 AM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(09-08-2015 12:46 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If those decisions weren't made, reality would cease to exist as we know it. You would become blind immediately...Actually, I suspect, you'd simply disintegrate. What is happening here is really kinda important to our existence.....at least as we know it.

I admit I am speculating a bit. I don't really know what would happen if the dice roller stopped tossing His dice for us. I can't imagine it being good though.

First, rubbish. You haven't addressed the actual fact that a photon doesn't need to 'collapse' and can quite happily be a particle smashing the heck out of what ever it hit (Other wise photovoltaic wouldn't work)

Second.. so you are saying that there are multiple chibi deities literally holding atoms together or something else just as weird.

because.. you know chemical interactions are happening on an atomic level (I think) and hence... we should be able to see chibi deities doing all that stuff, right?

Again, how does your deity manage to be every where at once? Since it would appear that nothing (Not even light) can be every where at once.

Unless you're only talking about the sub atomic part of reality.. in which case, again, your deity isn't really worth noticing (Unless you wish to become Oppenheimer.. Tongue)
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09-08-2015, 12:58 AM
RE: Peebo's and Heywood's comfy corner. :)
(09-08-2015 12:54 AM)Peebothuhul Wrote:  
(09-08-2015 12:46 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  If those decisions weren't made, reality would cease to exist as we know it. You would become blind immediately...Actually, I suspect, you'd simply disintegrate. What is happening here is really kinda important to our existence.....at least as we know it.

I admit I am speculating a bit. I don't really know what would happen if the dice roller stopped tossing His dice for us. I can't imagine it being good though.

First, rubbish. You haven't addressed the actual fact that a photon doesn't need to 'collapse' and can quite happily be a particle smashing the heck out of what ever it hit (Other wise photovoltaic wouldn't work)

Second.. so you are saying that there are multiple chibi deities literally holding atoms together or something else just as weird.

because.. you know chemical interactions are happening on an atomic level (I think) and hence... we should be able to see chibi deities doing all that stuff, right?

Again, how does your deity manage to be every where at once? Since it would appear that nothing (Not even light) can be every where at once.

Unless you're only talking about the sub atomic part of reality.. in which case, again, your deity isn't really worth noticing (Unless you wish to become Oppenheimer.. Tongue)

I'll address this in the morning. I'm tired
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