People think it's real? This can't be real!
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31-01-2013, 09:49 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
As a christian, I never questioned the existence of God any more than I questioned whether the ice in my drink was really cold. It was just an objective part of reality. I breathed air; my ice was cold; and God was real.

This is what happens when parents hammer the "objective truth" of God into their childrens' heads from the time they're infants. It's just a part of reality for them. That's why many theists are so stubborn when confronted with contrary evidence. When we argue that their personal God doesn't exist, we might as well be arguing that the ice in their drink isn't actually cold.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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31-01-2013, 10:00 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 09:49 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  As a christian, I never questioned the existence of God any more than I questioned whether the ice in my drink was really cold. It was just an objective part of reality. I breathed air; my ice was cold; and God was real.

This is what happens when parents hammer the "objective truth" of God into their childrens' heads from the time they're infants. It's just a part of reality for them. That's why many theists are so stubborn when confronted with contrary evidence. When we argue that their personal God doesn't exist, we might as well be arguing that the ice in their drink isn't actually cold.


Hmmmm, well, except for the evidence part. Consider

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-01-2013, 10:15 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 10:00 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(31-01-2013 09:49 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  As a christian, I never questioned the existence of God any more than I questioned whether the ice in my drink was really cold. It was just an objective part of reality. I breathed air; my ice was cold; and God was real.

This is what happens when parents hammer the "objective truth" of God into their childrens' heads from the time they're infants. It's just a part of reality for them. That's why many theists are so stubborn when confronted with contrary evidence. When we argue that their personal God doesn't exist, we might as well be arguing that the ice in their drink isn't actually cold.


Hmmmm, well, except for the evidence part. Consider
Yes, but the mind of a fully-deluded theist doesn't care about evidence. In fact, when I believed, I openly admited (at some point) that there is little to no tangible evidence for God's existence. But, I still believed whole-heartedly. God was just a reality to me, because he was taught as a reality. That's the power of indoctrination. It can convince you that something you can't see, hear, smell, taste, feel, weigh or calculate is still there; just as real as any other aspect of reality.

It's rather disturbing, actually.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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31-01-2013, 10:16 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 10:15 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(31-01-2013 10:00 AM)Chas Wrote:  Hmmmm, well, except for the evidence part. Consider
Yes, but the mind of a fully-deluded theist doesn't care about evidence. In fact, when I believed, I openly admited (at some point) that there is little to no tangible evidence for God's existence. But, I still believed whole-heartedly. God was just a reality to me, because he was taught as a reality. That's the power of indoctrination. It can convince you that something you can't see, hear, smell, taste, feel, weigh or calculate is still there; just as real as any other aspect of reality.

It's rather disturbing, actually.


Why, yes, yes it is. Weeping

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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31-01-2013, 10:23 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 09:49 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  As a christian, I never questioned the existence of God any more than I questioned whether the ice in my drink was really cold. It was just an objective part of reality. I breathed air; my ice was cold; and God was real. (...)

Ok... I get what you mean, but if your family forced it down your throat, didn't you have any doubts about what you've been told? For example, when I was a kid the religious adults would say that up there, is heaven (read: sky) and god lives there. But then you see pics of the outer space, a black sky with stars, planets and galaxies, a wee bit dark for a comfy heaven, right? Or, when they tell you the Adam+Eve story, you look at them and both are white and one might wonder how then were blacks, asians, latinos, etc. created? Oh yeah, and when Jesus woke up from the dead, why didn't anyone else after him? And if he'd woke up, why kill him in the first place? Speaking of, why would they say he died for us? He got fucking killed, he didn't want to die willingly?! I could go on and on, but then I'd probably sit here till tomorrow.

What I mean is, at some point a kid would realize that santa claus isn't real and that mom and dad would buy the gifts and put them under the xmas tree, no matter how much parents are trying to fool kids.

"Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan)
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31-01-2013, 10:34 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 10:23 AM)pxlgirl Wrote:  
(31-01-2013 09:49 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  As a christian, I never questioned the existence of God any more than I questioned whether the ice in my drink was really cold. It was just an objective part of reality. I breathed air; my ice was cold; and God was real. (...)

Ok... I get what you mean, but if your family forced it down your throat, didn't you have any doubts about what you've been told? For example, when I was a kid the religious adults would say that up there, is heaven (read: sky) and god lives there. But then you see pics of the outer space, a black sky with stars, planets and galaxies, a wee bit dark for a comfy heaven, right? Or, when they tell you the Adam+Eve story, you look at them and both are white and one might wonder how then were blacks, asians, latinos, etc. created? Oh yeah, and when Jesus woke up from the dead, why didn't anyone else after him? And if he'd woke up, why kill him in the first place? Speaking of, why would they say he died for us? He got fucking killed, he didn't want to die willingly?! I could go on and on, but then I'd probably sit here till tomorrow.

What I mean is, at some point a kid would realize that santa claus isn't real and that mom and dad would buy the gifts and put them under the xmas tree, no matter how much parents are trying to fool kids.

At some point a kid will realize mom and dad are really Santa, yes. But for a time, many of them really believe there's a literal jolly man in a red suit out there.
When I say that my parents forced their beliefs onto me through indoctrination, I'm speaking in hindsight. I know now that my mind was being raped. But at the time, I didn't. At the time, it was just part of life for me. I wasn't even introduced to the concept of not believing in God until I was 17, and it shocked me.

I was always thinking about my beliefs, but it was not in doubt. It was in curiosity as to how it all worked. When I looked at photos of deep space, I saw the beauty of God's creation. In regard to Heaven, I knew that I couldn't see it in those photos because it was in some other realm beyond our perception. It was a spiritual realm; beyond the physical. With Jesus, I (and others I knew) would speculate as to what he actually looked like. We'd look at maps and base our conclusion on where he was alleged to have been and at around what time. But we never questioned if he existed at all to begin with. God and Jesus were just defaults. Circles are round, ice is cold, and God is real. It's difficult to grasp if you've never felt it, but it was literally that simple. From the time I was born, God was pitched as a part of reality. It simply never occured to me to question otherwise.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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31-01-2013, 10:43 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
Hmm, maybe it was also a part of your life because your parents (as adults) bought this crap and therefore you'd think it must be right what adults do/think, especially when they keep repeating the same stuff over and over again?

"Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan)
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31-01-2013, 10:51 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 10:43 AM)pxlgirl Wrote:  Hmm, maybe it was also a part of your life because your parents (as adults) bought this crap and therefore you'd think it must be right what adults do/think, especially when they keep repeating the same stuff over and over again?
Well, my parents were also indoctrinated from birth. My mother was raised in a devoutly Christian home, and my dad was raised in a less-devout, but still very religious Catholic home. So, even while they strayed from their original upbringing from time to time, they retained a deeply-seated sense of spirituality. My conception prompted them both to cement themselves in their (now unified) beliefs. So, from the time I was born, it was all I knew. It wasn't necessarily a matter of following their lead spiritually; it was just that belief was a part of life. Nay, it WAS life.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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31-01-2013, 11:01 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 10:43 AM)pxlgirl Wrote:  Hmm, maybe it was also a part of your life because your parents (as adults) bought this crap and therefore you'd think it must be right what adults do/think, especially when they keep repeating the same stuff over and over again?

Certainly... reinforcement. Continuous reinforcement. If you want a lie to stick... make sure it's simple and repeat it, repeat it, repeat it.... and get everyone around to repeat it.
Only when you are living the lie, do you not know it's a lie. That's what perception manipulation is all about.

Quote:...I openly admited (at some point) that there is little to no tangible evidence for God's existence. But, I still believed whole-heartedly.

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I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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31-01-2013, 11:57 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(30-01-2013 09:36 PM)pxlgirl Wrote:  Ok so maybe I'm naive or I missed something, but I've always thought that belief/faith is only a mental concept, and I was completely fine with this, as I assumed that religion is just a cultural construct that shows one of many ways to cope with reality, which can sound threatening and fearful at times. Not all are gifted with imagination and creativity, so something pre-made might be just right for them, either to stick to it or to develop in some direction from there. My decision not to be a part of this was mainly because I don't need a pre-made concept, I can come up with my own.


Yet, what I thought to be a matter of some extremist nuts, it turned out to be the vast majority: Claiming the existence of a god as a matter of fact, an objective, a reality outside of the heads and thoughts. I realized this when watching some episodes of "The Atheist Experience" and it kinda shocked me. Believe it or not, I really didn't know that before. Is it really this way?

It's a matter of fact as opposed to a matter of opinion: God either exists or doesn't exist. Whether one believes in God in his or her "head and thoughts", that really has no relevance on whether or not God is factual. Are you genuinely surprised that people believe in God as a matter of fact, or did you just want some claps on the back for calling Christians "extremist nuts"?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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