People think it's real? This can't be real!
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31-01-2013, 12:34 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
Yes, I am surprised, and as mentioned in my first post, I was classifying god as a "mental construct/concept" that has been created by men, or rather their brains. But apart from that, I was assuming that people are aware of it being a concept, utilizing it as it suits or helps them in anyway to cope with a reality, that often doesn't match with their emotions or expectations. This would be actually a good thing, I also do escape in my own little imaginary worlds, it is comforting, relaxing and inspirational. I don't understand why religious folks always get offended by this. Maybe because they are pissed that their god isn't a part of the real world? I like faires, but they don't exist in real, so what? I know it, and I'm fine with it. Does that change the fact that I like them? No. At the end of the day, life's what YOU make it.

"Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan)
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31-01-2013, 12:53 PM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2013 01:10 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 12:34 PM)pxlgirl Wrote:  Yes, I am surprised, and as mentioned in my first post, I was classifying god as a "mental construct/concept" that has been created by men, or rather their brains. But apart from that, I was assuming that people are aware of it being a concept, utilizing it as it suits or helps them in anyway to cope with a reality, that often doesn't match with their emotions or expectations. This would be actually a good thing, I also do escape in my own little imaginary worlds, it is comforting, relaxing and inspirational. I don't understand why religious folks always get offended by this. Maybe because they are pissed that their god isn't a part of the real world? I like faires, but they don't exist in real, so what? I know it, and I'm fine with it. Does that change the fact that I like them? No. At the end of the day, life's what YOU make it.
God as a mental construct or concept. I can get on board with that idea.

So the question would be does it help people?

Yes and no.

Religion provides for a few needs.
The need to be good, or act moral. By providing a moral law, and a role model that one should live up to.
Community
An escape from mortality, through death you gain eternal life. Whether you want it or not.
Punishment for those who do wrong, to you or others, ie hell.
A way to deflect emotions, with out properly experiencing them.

And I'm sure you could add a few more things to this list.

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31-01-2013, 01:19 PM (This post was last modified: 31-01-2013 01:22 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 12:53 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(31-01-2013 12:34 PM)pxlgirl Wrote:  Yes, I am surprised, and as mentioned in my first post, I was classifying god as a "mental construct/concept" that has been created by men, or rather their brains. But apart from that, I was assuming that people are aware of it being a concept, utilizing it as it suits or helps them in anyway to cope with a reality, that often doesn't match with their emotions or expectations. This would be actually a good thing, I also do escape in my own little imaginary worlds, it is comforting, relaxing and inspirational. I don't understand why religious folks always get offended by this. Maybe because they are pissed that their god isn't a part of the real world? I like faires, but they don't exist in real, so what? I know it, and I'm fine with it. Does that change the fact that I like them? No. At the end of the day, life's what YOU make it.
God as a mental construct or concept. I can get on board with that idea.

So the question would be does it help people?

Yes and no.

Religion provides for a few needs.
The need to be good, or act moral. By providing a moral law, and a role model that one should live up to.
Community
An escape from mortality, through death you gain eternal life. Whether you want it or not.
Punishment for those who do wrong, to you or others, ie hell.
A way to deflect emotions, with out properly experiencing them.

And I'm sure you could add a few more things to this list.
Now what are the negative consequences of religion?

Ethical.

Living up to an idolized perfect being, is one hell of an impossibility. Surely you will fail everyday, and have to deal with that guilt usually through prayer.

Having set moral laws can cause confusion, and rationalization to get around the laws. Ie murder is wrong but war is ok? WTF

Community. Often in the religious world there is this uncanny competition to have the most "faith". The Holier look down on the less holy, and ridicule each other, creating in groups and out groups.

The idea that you will live forever, and see your loved ones again, means that emotionally you deal with death differently from other people.

Rather than dealing with the idea that your loved one is gone forever. You deflect this intuitive feeling, you cry because you will miss them for a life time but always with the reservation that the actually live somewhere else and you will get there too.

When somebody does something wrong. Rather than addressing the issue, asking what you can do, or learning to let it go if you can do nothing. You simply think that "They'll get theirs in HELL" Which is a sick way to look at your fellow man psychologically waiting for them to be tortured forever so that you can feel avenged.

Finally the prayer aspect is in my opinion the greatest failure.

Literally prayer is self serving. Its an emotional end to your needs. If you feel compelled to help you can pray. You'll feel better but have actually done nothing to help. You can pray for a life to be saved, but saving a life often requires another person to interfere. Etc....

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31-01-2013, 01:31 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
For a great paradigm shift to occur takes time and sometimes, effort. When science presents new evidence for say, a round Earth, it took (most of) the world some time, some decades, to buck the tide of some scientists and the church and say, "Everyone knows the Earth is round."


Yet my Atheist friends say there has never been a God and there has been no evidence for God in any section of human history. They might also say there is evidence
there is not a God. So, we have 97% of humanity for all history holding an historic belief in a non-scientific delusion.


Can anyone name another delusion that the vast majority of people persist with in belief
despite the evidence against it for centuries? And if man is that delusional as a whole, can anyone trust anyone's statement on anything?
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31-01-2013, 01:39 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 12:53 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(31-01-2013 12:34 PM)pxlgirl Wrote:  Yes, I am surprised, and as mentioned in my first post, I was classifying god as a "mental construct/concept" that has been created by men, or rather their brains. But apart from that, I was assuming that people are aware of it being a concept, utilizing it as it suits or helps them in anyway to cope with a reality, that often doesn't match with their emotions or expectations. This would be actually a good thing, I also do escape in my own little imaginary worlds, it is comforting, relaxing and inspirational. I don't understand why religious folks always get offended by this. Maybe because they are pissed that their god isn't a part of the real world? I like faires, but they don't exist in real, so what? I know it, and I'm fine with it. Does that change the fact that I like them? No. At the end of the day, life's what YOU make it.
God as a mental construct or concept. I can get on board with that idea.

So the question would be does it help people?

Yes and no.

Religion provides for a few needs.
The need to be good, or act moral. By providing a moral law, and a role model that one should live up to.
Community
An escape from mortality, through death you gain eternal life. Whether you want it or not.
Punishment for those who do wrong, to you or others, ie hell.
A way to deflect emotions, with out properly experiencing them.

And I'm sure you could add a few more things to this list.
Sorry, but, I think we're doing pretty well at that on our own. Thumbsup

Edit: The morality thing. (Didn't show up when I posted)

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31-01-2013, 02:22 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 01:31 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  For a great paradigm shift to occur takes time and sometimes, effort. When science presents new evidence for say, a round Earth, it took (most of) the world some time, some decades, to buck the tide of some scientists and the church and say, "Everyone knows the Earth is round."

Yet my Atheist friends say there has never been a God and there has been no evidence for God in any section of human history. They might also say there is evidence
there is not a God. So, we have 97% of humanity for all history holding an historic belief in a non-scientific delusion.

Can anyone name another delusion that the vast majority of people persist with in belief
despite the evidence against it for centuries? And if man is that delusional as a whole, can anyone trust anyone's statement on anything?

Today? Probably not. Not with that level of saturation.

But some beliefs have existed with that kind of majority buy-in for almost as long.

How about monsters? For all of mankind's history we've believed in dragons, trolls, faeries, sea monsters, zombies, whatever. Just about everyone believed in them until very modern times. Even today, many still do, though most of those have moved onto aliens instead (although bigfoot and Nessie seem to persist but only among a small percentage).

How about the flat earth? People believed that for all of mankind's history until fairly recently.

How about witches and curses? People believed that for all of mankind's history until fairly recently. Even longer if we define "witch" as any magic/curse wielding evildoer long before the word "witch" and its satanic implications existed.

How about ghosts? Maybe that's just a sub-category of monsters, or of religion, but I see it as an entirely different category belonging to the spiritual world (not monsters) that seems to transcend specific religious beliefs. Heck, even today, I think a majority of the world's population believes in ghosts and that was even more widespread until fairly recently.

Hmmmm, "until fairly recently" seems to be a theme in my responses. I wonder. Fast forward a couple hundred years and I believe we might find someone posting this:

Quote: How about gods? The vast majority of the world's population believed in imaginary gods until fairly recently.

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31-01-2013, 02:53 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
Very thoughtful and intelligent response. Thank you.

My counter:

97% of people didn't believe in witchcraft or dragons in the ancient world. You can find texts from many eras debunking such superstition. And 97% of people don't believe in ghosts. Witness the ratings of current ghost hunter programs. Smile
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31-01-2013, 03:01 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 02:53 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Very thoughtful and intelligent response. Thank you.

My counter:

97% of people didn't believe in witchcraft or dragons in the ancient world. You can find texts from many eras debunking such superstition. And 97% of people don't believe in ghosts. Witness the ratings of current ghost hunter programs. Smile
Your wording is very vague. What "people"? The population of the world? Or just of specific regions?

Also, citing a source would be beneficial.

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31-01-2013, 03:07 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
My bad! I meant to write it's untrue that 97% of people used to believe in dragons or that 97% of people believe or used to believe in ghosts. We all know that 97% of people are not Atheists.
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31-01-2013, 03:12 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(31-01-2013 03:07 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  My bad! I meant to write it's untrue that 97% of people used to believe in dragons or that 97% of people believe or used to believe in ghosts. We all know that 97% of people are not Atheists.
Again, what people are we talking about?

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