People think it's real? This can't be real!
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01-02-2013, 03:56 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(01-02-2013 02:47 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I was just as shocked when I found out that creationists still existed. I thought they were some ignorant 1970's fad that died out in the early 80's. I hadn't heard anything about them for 30 years, then I peek my head into an atheist forum and BAM, there they are spouting nonsense.

I was indeed quite shocked
It was even worse for me. Smile

I didn't even know that Creationism existed before I learned about it on the Internet. The acceptance of the theory of evolution as a valid scientific theory by the Catholic Church put the final nail in the coffin of Creationism in Europe.

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01-02-2013, 07:07 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
1. Yes, I am certainly aware that the man Jesus of Bethlehem did not write any of the words of the Bible. But I hold to the tenet that He inspired every word of the scriptures so that as He is man and God, the scriptures are of man and God. I am able to express gratitude at this time to Jesus. Moses and Paul have a harder time hearing my praises. Smile
2. I read all your posts. Only a few avoided ad hom attacks and even fewer attempted to answer my questions. It's been some days now and no one has even attempted to answer my second question!
What evidence was there that the planets orbited the Sun and not the Earth? Retrograde motion? Etc. Your answers befit your lack of tackling my questions with any degree of seriousness.
No one is answering my questions, so I'll rephrase them if I may:
Atheists contend that Theists are deluded, so name another delusion man has held almost universally for millennia in the face of evidence (or lack of evidence)?
Atheists contend that man as a overwhelmingly Theist being (the 22% figure and etc. is almost laughable) is superstitious and deluded, so how can anyone be trusted for anything?
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01-02-2013, 07:15 AM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 07:22 AM by Vosur.)
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(01-02-2013 07:07 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  1. Yes, I am certainly aware that the man Jesus of Bethlehem did not write any of the words of the Bible.
Then why did you claim that he did?

(01-02-2013 07:07 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  2. I read all your posts. Only a few avoided ad hom attacks and even fewer attempted to answer my questions.
Nobody here has made an ad hominem argument. Please cite the posts you are referring to.

(01-02-2013 07:07 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  No one is answering my questions, so I'll rephrase them if I may:
Atheists contend that Theists are deluded, so name another delusion man has held almost universally for millennia in the face of evidence (or lack of evidence)?
Atheists contend that man as a overwhelmingly Theist being (the 22% figure and etc. is almost laughable) is superstitious and deluded, so how can anyone be trusted for anything?
Intellectual dishonesty now, is it?

Your questions have already been answered several times; you'd be aware of that, had you actually read the replies.

(31-01-2013 04:17 PM)Phaedrus Wrote:  For millennia, men believed in a geocentric universe, where the entire universe revolved around the earth. Some people, especially those who did not develop sea travel, believed that the earth is flat. Many people, for the majority of the history of mankind, believed that the earth is young, with a life measured in the thousands of years, not billions.

Humans are fallible. Which is why, until the advent of science, many people were religious and many religions were based on similar foundations.

But science is less fallible than simple human judgement. Before science, one might say, "I believe X!" And it ended there. That was religion.

Now we can say, "I believe X. I will compare X to what we observe in reality, and make predictions based on X and compare those predictions to reality. Oh, whoops! X is wrong. But with new information, I believe Y. I will compare Y to what we observe in reality, and make predictions based on Y and compare those predictions to reality. Looks like Y is consistent with reality! Now I'll go seek out a bunch of other smart people and have them check my work to see if I made any mistakes!"

Human intuition is fallible and can lead to delusion. That is why we have developed a system, a method, for testing our intuitions against reality so as to defeat delusion and arrive at an understanding of reality which is closer to the truth. This is science. And science is killing religion.

(31-01-2013 06:05 PM)hedgehog648 Wrote:  For a long time the majority of people in Europe believed that sickness and disease was a result of an imbalance in the four humours: Blood, Yellow Bile, Black Bile and Phlegm. As a result blood letting was considered a treatment for most diseases.


We now know it was complete bollocks.

Further, it is incorrect to say the vast majority of people believe anything. There are a lot of Christians, a lot of Muslims, a lot of Hindus and Sikhs and Buddhists and Atheists. None of them are the vast majority of the worlds population. Not that being in the majority means anything - the ad populum type of argument is a logical fallacy.

Since man is so easily mistaken we can only rely on empirical evidence and the scientific method to work out anything about the universe. And when new evidence arises to contradict our understanding we must be prepared to change that understanding, otherwise we will never really know anything.

(31-01-2013 02:22 PM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  Today? Probably not. Not with that level of saturation.

But some beliefs have existed with that kind of majority buy-in for almost as long.

How about monsters? For all of mankind's history we've believed in dragons, trolls, faeries, sea monsters, zombies, whatever. Just about everyone believed in them until very modern times. Even today, many still do, though most of those have moved onto aliens instead (although bigfoot and Nessie seem to persist but only among a small percentage).

How about the flat earth? People believed that for all of mankind's history until fairly recently.

How about witches and curses? People believed that for all of mankind's history until fairly recently. Even longer if we define "witch" as any magic/curse wielding evildoer long before the word "witch" and its satanic implications existed.

How about ghosts? Maybe that's just a sub-category of monsters, or of religion, but I see it as an entirely different category belonging to the spiritual world (not monsters) that seems to transcend specific religious beliefs. Heck, even today, I think a majority of the world's population believes in ghosts and that was even more widespread until fairly recently.

Hmmmm, "until fairly recently" seems to be a theme in my responses. I wonder. Fast forward a couple hundred years and I believe we might find someone posting this:

Quote: How about gods? The vast majority of the world's population believed in imaginary gods until fairly recently.

(31-01-2013 11:51 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  This is actually a pretty good question, and it's a reason why most of us atheists are skeptical. Our brains simply don't work like we expect them to -- we fall prey to optical and audio illusions, bias, and laziness when it comes to interpreting evidence. So yes, man is overwhelmingly deluded, and many of the ideas that man comes up with will be wrong. Consider the topic of religion. Even though you believe that yours is correct, what percentage of world religions are right? Yours would make up a percent of a percent. So why are you so sure about your own? I imagine it's for the same reason that all those who believe the "wrong" religions are so sure -- delusion.

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01-02-2013, 01:28 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
For someone who reread all the other posts, you clearly haven't read mine.
"In the face of evidence or lack of evidence." No one had anatomical evidence against the humours, anatomy studies were even forbidden by the church.
The "everyone" believed in faeries is nonsense. Etc.
And again, everyone ducks the second question. I'll re-re-phrase it:
If 97% of mankind is delusional concerning God, how can Atheists trust anyone but themselves?
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01-02-2013, 01:31 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
Since you specifically called out that nobody is answering your second question, and Vosur did a fine job of presenting several answers to your first question anyway, then let me tackle question number two, quoted here.

(01-02-2013 07:07 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Atheists contend that man as a overwhelmingly Theist being (the 22% figure and etc. is almost laughable) is superstitious and deluded, so how can anyone be trusted for anything?

Is man superstitious? Absofreakinglutely. Just look at all the superstitions we've had over the years, and many still exist today. You know it and I know it and everyone here knows it - mankind is superstitious.

Is mankind deluded? Certainly. All superstitions are wrong. If they weren't wrong, we would call them facts instead of superstitions. For example, if we could prove that breaking a mirror will cause bad luck, demonstrably prove it to be a fact, then nobody would call that a superstition anymore. It would move from the realm of superstition to the realm of general body of knowledge.

Confusing reality with superstition is, by definition, delusion. Since mankind persists in believing in so many superstitions and has done so for as far back as recorded evidence can demonstrate, then clearly we are deluded by our beliefs in all this wrong stuff.

So, yes, we are superstitious and delusional. Some more than others, clearly, but as a species, both of those adjectives apply to us in general.

So how can we trust each other? Simple. We have no choice. What else can we do? Distrust each other? If you tell me you have a dog, should I distrust that out of hand because I know that our species is generally superstitious and delusional? Of course not.

But for me, and for most of us, trust is something to be earned rather than automatically granted. People in my life who repeatedly lie to me, spout delusional nonsense, etc., are people whom I don't trust. People in my life who never lie to me and never spout delusional nonsense are people that I trust. Sure, some might be good liars and I just am not aware I'm being lied to, but I have to go with my own perceptions of who is lying and who is not.

When it comes to shared delusions, such as two Flat-earthers discussing their delusion that the earth is flat, they won't perceive that the other one is spouting delusional nonsense. So, when it comes to belief systems, what we deem "delusional nonsense" is highly objective - each of us will make up our own minds as to what is delusional nonsense and what is not. And we'll label other contradictory belief systems delusional nonsense while maintaining that our belief system is not.

For me, theism is delusional nonsense. For you it seems that it is not. I think you are superstitious and deluded and you probably think the same thing about me. That makes it hard to build trust between us. But if we were neighbors, I'd probably still let you borrow my lawnmower - that's a different kind of trust not affected by our mutual disagreement about delusions.

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01-02-2013, 01:42 PM (This post was last modified: 01-02-2013 01:47 PM by Vosur.)
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(01-02-2013 01:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  For someone who reread all the other posts, you clearly haven't read mine.
"In the face of evidence or lack of evidence." No one had anatomical evidence against the humours, anatomy studies were even forbidden by the church.
Precisely. Lack of evidence. None of the beliefs mentioned by the users I cited were supported by empirical evidence, they were mere superstition invented by primitive people.

(01-02-2013 01:28 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If 97% of mankind is delusional concerning God, how can Atheists trust anyone but themselves?
This is a loaded question because it presupposes that 97% of mankind is delusional concerning god. Where did you get that number from?

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02-02-2013, 06:59 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
Wow... how come that every time some believers join a rational discussion things get so off topic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies


PleaseJesus, I can't help, but your nick makes me think of this:

[Image: 034-wrong-bait.jpg]

So stay on topic or Please(fuck off)Jesus.

"Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan)
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02-02-2013, 07:19 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(02-02-2013 06:59 AM)pxlgirl Wrote:  Wow... how come that every time some believers join a rational discussion things get so off topic?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies


PleaseJesus, I can't help, but your nick makes me think of this:

[Image: 034-wrong-bait.jpg]

So stay on topic or Please(fuck off)Jesus.



Now, now Pixel.


The second you submit a thread, it becomes the property of the community, it is no longer your own, despite your wishes, and as much as I hate to admit it, the Theo-trolls have as much right to join and speak their mind as you or I here.

It is what makes TTA interesting and unique, after all.


Derailing is a fact of life, expect everything to be derailed, that way you wont be disappointed.

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02-02-2013, 07:24 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
I wasn't referring to this thread, I've noticed this all over the place, not only here on this forum. It just becomes annoying after seeing discussions 100000000th times going downhill as a result.

"Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan)
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02-02-2013, 07:31 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(02-02-2013 07:24 AM)pxlgirl Wrote:  I wasn't referring to this thread, I've noticed this all over the place, not only here on this forum. It just becomes annoying after seeing discussions 100000000th times going downhill as a result.


But we sometimes re-rail them. Yes

Ok, rarely. Weeping

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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