People think it's real? This can't be real!
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05-02-2013, 08:17 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(05-02-2013 07:46 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:No, that would be belief based on evidence.
Right, trust based on evidence. I have documents from the ancient world that I place trust in. Did George Washington exist? You'll have to decide based on documentary evidence.
Quote:The time span was hundreds of years. The early books were written ca. 300BCE, the later ones ca. 100CE.

It is not rational to believe unsupported ancient texts.
I'm aware of those very liberal dates for the scriptures, however, not even the Jesus Seminar held to such a late dating for the NT. And there's too much information we have for the earlier, more conservative dating of the OT. For one example, there is a forbidding to make an idol of God, as we all know from the commandments of Exodus 20. Which country, Chas, has had the most archaeological digs in world history? Israel, of course. And they find Baals and Ashtoreths but not Yahweh carvings, right? I remember a professor who taught JDEP until my friend presented clear archaeological evidence that showed the OT got the styles of doors and other housing elements dead accurate as revealed by modern archaeology. Then he shut up.
The real question, Chas, is what kind of evidence helps you understand an ancient document as reliable? And you can't say, "D'uh, not one with miracles in it," because that is utterly circular. Why? Because you are starting with a presupposition that the document is unreliable and show your lack of a rigorous scientific method.
The Bible is unsupported by external evidence. The stories are clearly myths and are derived from myths of other and earlier myths. You can choose to trust a set of writings that are both internally and externally inconsistent and contradictory, but that is not a rational decision.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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05-02-2013, 08:49 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
but SPECIAL PLEADING therefore YOU ARE WRONG !!! Ha!
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05-02-2013, 11:28 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
1) The Bible's level of detail alone puts it above Gilgamesh myth and etc. 2) Hundreds of Bible statements are verified through modern archaeology. 3) It's only seeming to be special pleading because you have a bias against the text. Morondog and Chas are giving credence to my assertion that they have a bias that says, "The whole book's off because there are no miracles (anomalies)" rather than "Perhaps the book is accurate, let's get into textual and other evidence and consider the supernatural later".
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05-02-2013, 11:40 AM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
Yeah? What about koran, hindu and buddhist scriptures? They are kinda got it all wrong too, eh?

"Some part of our being knows this is where we came from. We long to return, and we can, because the cosmos is also within us. We're made of star stuff. We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." (Carl Sagan)
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05-02-2013, 12:13 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(05-02-2013 11:28 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  1) The Bible's level of detail alone puts it above Gilgamesh myth and etc.

The only things we know about Gilgamesh is a poem carved into clay tablets. It's way older than the bible, not much paper around back then and what they had, not much of it survived the millenia to be useful to us now. Maybe there was more detail in Gilgamesh's flood than the bible has in Noah's flood but we'll never know for sure.

Is level of detail our primary consideration for validity? Should we choose our religion based on who has the most details? Harry Potter has way more detail than the entire bible. Should we all start worshiping Harry Potter?

(05-02-2013 11:28 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  2) Hundreds of Bible statements are verified through modern archaeology.

Wow. Hundreds. Out of what, hundreds of thousands of statements? There are 31,240 verses in the KJV bible, and many of those verses have multiple "statements". But even if we count only verses, and we assume that when you said "hundreds" you meant around 300, that means about 1% of the bible is verified. Even if you meant 900, that's still not quite 3% of the bible's verses.

3% of the bible is "verified through modern archaeology". What does archaeology verify? Creation? No. Garden of Eden? No. Biblical people? No. What people said? No. Morality? No. Heaven? No. Commandments? No. What does archaeology verify?

Places. That's it. Places. So because we can find a town or a river or a mountain, and because "hundreds" of such places are mentioned in the bible and verified in archaeology, that makes the other 97% of the bible true as well?

I can find more than 3% of Harry Potter to be verifiable by archaeology too, with satellite photos to prove it.

(05-02-2013 11:28 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  3) It's only seeming to be special pleading because you have a bias against the text.

No, it seems to be special pleading because it is. You insist on believing unverified mythology because a few places are archaeologically relevant. That doesn't make any of the mythology real except in the minds of the believers who tell themselves things like "I know it's real because it just is" which falls under special pleading.

(05-02-2013 11:28 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  "Perhaps the book is accurate, let's get into textual and other evidence and consider the supernatural later".

Back to those "hundreds" of places that are archaeologically relevant, fine, big deal. I can show you a book about the Civil War with thousands of accurate places, people, and events, way more provable than the bible, but that doesn't build a case for worshiping Robert E. Lee.

When we talk about religion, the supernatural is the ONLY thing that is really relevant. Nobody goes to church to learn where the Jordan river is. People go to church to learn about how great God (supernatural) is, how Jesus (supernatural) saved us (supernatural salvation), what our afterlife (supernatural) will be like, and so on. Religion is entirely supernatural.

So your statement makes no sense - so what if a few places are accurate, nobody really cares about those places, let's consider the supernatural NOW because that's all religion really is. And since accurate places don't prove or even support the validity of any biblical supernatural claims, it's all irrelevant.

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05-02-2013, 02:27 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
Quote:Yeah? What about koran, hindu and buddhist scriptures? They are kinda got it all wrong too, eh?
Hi pxlgirl. As a fundamentalist Christian, I absolutely align with you. You have zero true religions, I have one and only one. Christians are quite close to freethinkers in this regard.
Quote:Even if you meant 900, that's still not quite 3% of the bible's verses.
I think you have a narrow definition of "many". I never wrote "some". Halley's Bible commentary alone devoted its first 200 pages to extensive archaeological finds. How many archaeological finds have refuted the Bible?
Quote:I can show you a book about the Civil War with thousands of accurate places, people, and events, way more provable than the bible, but that doesn't build a case for worshiping Robert E. Lee.
What would build a case for worshiping E. Lee? Resurrection from the dead? Miracles? You've set up a straw man here and in a number of your arguments. The biggest straw man is that I'm going to whip out dead-to-rights proof that what I say is the only truth, so solid you MUST become a Christian. Well, I will not and cannot.
1) God never subverts the free will of a Christian or non-Christian. You have to want to go to Heaven to go there. You have to want something better to reach out to Jesus.
2) Prophecy is unique proof and proof of the Christian faith alone from among all other faiths. But everyone here pulls out canards about the text itself. I'd love, however, an honest review of this page:
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/pdf/JeffBIBL...ision2.pdf
Thanks.
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05-02-2013, 02:39 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(05-02-2013 02:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Yeah? What about koran, hindu and buddhist scriptures? They are kinda got it all wrong too, eh?
Hi pxlgirl. As a fundamentalist Christian, I absolutely align with you. You have zero true religions, I have one and only one. Christians are quite close to freethinkers in this regard.

That has got to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen.

We reject all religions equally because we actually think. You are brainwashed.

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05-02-2013, 03:08 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(05-02-2013 02:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:I can show you a book about the Civil War with thousands of accurate places, people, and events, way more provable than the bible, but that doesn't build a case for worshiping Robert E. Lee.
What would build a case for worshiping E. Lee? Resurrection from the dead? Miracles? You've set up a straw man here and in a number of your arguments. The biggest straw man is that I'm going to whip out dead-to-rights proof that what I say is the only truth, so solid you MUST become a Christian. Well, I will not and cannot.
1) God never subverts the free will of a Christian or non-Christian. You have to want to go to Heaven to go there. You have to want something better to reach out to Jesus.

Wait... Does forcing a persons hand count as subverting free will?
Last I checked, if you don't fellow Jewbus, you get sent into an unending hell. ++That is kind of like hold a person up at a poker game and telling him; "If you don't fold, I will shoot you. But that is your decision to make." Not many options there. Or did I miss out on Hell being removed recently?

Not that I fear hell that is, I mean, what could hell possibly do to me once I am dead? Burn my used atoms? Scorch my not-skin? Poke the worms and bacteria that ate and decomposed my body with a pitchfork perhaps?


I'm not exactly a US history buff, but I think this Robert E Lee seems to be a character much more worthy of worship that any god I have to see so far.

Maybe the Japanese gods of ol'. Can't go wrong with Amaterasu. Thumbsup

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05-02-2013, 03:14 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
(05-02-2013 02:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Yeah? What about koran, hindu and buddhist scriptures? They are kinda got it all wrong too, eh?
Hi pxlgirl. As a fundamentalist Christian, I absolutely align with you. You have zero true religions, I have one and only one. Christians are quite close to freethinkers in this regard.

Interesting. By inference then, Christians are not "freethinkers" since they're only close to it, ergo, not it. Doesn't this undermine any claim that Christians have free will when you admit that they don't even have free thought?

(05-02-2013 02:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:I can show you a book about the Civil War with thousands of accurate places, people, and events, way more provable than the bible, but that doesn't build a case for worshiping Robert E. Lee.
What would build a case for worshiping E. Lee? Resurrection from the dead? Miracles?

Sure, stuff like that would help build a case. Thank you for making the same point I was making.

But that wouldn't be your case, not in the post I quoted. Your case was that there are "hundreds" of archaeological verifications of the bible therefore we should accept the bible as correct and worship the Christian god. My rebuttal was that archaeological verification of some points of reference in a story doesn't make the main characters of the story worship-worthy.

(05-02-2013 02:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  You've set up a straw man here and in a number of your arguments.

Here then, I'll make it simple for you and take the straw man out of it.

You contend that archaeological verification of places gives the bible enough credibility to use it as a basis for religious worship. I contend that we need some verification of a more religious nature, some verification of the supernatural stuff, of god, of Jesus, of anything biblical beyond the location of some of the villages in the stories - without some religious verification, it's all just mythology that happens to contain some actual locations.

Heck, Greek mythology is full of actual locations that are archaeologically verifiable too, but I bet you don't take that evidence to support the worship of Zeus, so I don't suggest you use biblical archaeology to support worship of Yahweh. Or is that another straw man?

(05-02-2013 02:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  1) God never subverts the free will of a Christian or non-Christian. You have to want to go to Heaven to go there. You have to want something better to reach out to Jesus.

Except you don't have freewill or even free thought.

The rest of that is ridiculously circular. I could just as easily say you have to want to go to Chicago to go there. Oh, wait, is that another straw man? Then I'll make it more clear: Why should I want to go to heaven when it doesn't exist? Why should I want to reach out to Jesus when he doesn't exist? If he does exist, why can't he take the first step and give me a reason, any simple little reason, beyond a dusty old inconsistent, mistranslated, book of occasionally archaeologically verifiable mythology, to give me the slightest reason to believe he might be there to respond when I reach out?

(05-02-2013 02:27 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  2) Prophecy is unique proof and proof of the Christian faith alone from among all other faiths. But everyone here pulls out canards about the text itself. I'd love, however, an honest review of this page:
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/pdf/JeffBIBL...ision2.pdf
Thanks.

Prophecy, shmophecy. There are tons of prophecies in the bible and most of them have not come true. The few that seem to have come true might just be random luck - if you predict enough stuff, some of it will happen, sooner or later. If these really are the words of God, shouldn't they all have come true?

So this Ezekiel one is pretty specific. That would be a neat prophecy, to predict the exact year 2.5 millennia in the future. I would be impressed. Except that it's not accurate. Even if it were, who's to say that, in the 1930's and 1940's there weren't some bible scholars among the leaders of the displaced nation of Israel who were biding their time, targeting this precise date, and then pushing strongly for it as the date approached? Even if this prophecy were true, it might have been made true by modern people trying to make it come true.

But it's somewhat inaccurate. Here's a link that might disagree with your link:

First thing I found on Google

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05-02-2013, 03:22 PM
RE: People think it's real? This can't be real!
Quote:That has got to be one of the most ridiculous statements I have ever seen.

We reject all religions equally because we actually think. You are brainwashed.
There are distinctions, Chas. Which of the other religions publicly preach? How many Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims are on this forum trying to "reach" freethinkers? No, Christianity is real and true and a great motivator for us as believers. Jesus loves you!
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